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Fatigue: Secret vs. NPRM

luckytohaveajob

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What will the NPRM look like compared to the secret ARC report?

ALPA to Pilots: Read Your Union’s Fatigue Recommendations to the FAA
September 24, 2009
........
“While it remains our desire to not address any of the information that has been recently leaked in interviews to the press,” said Capt. Don Wykoff (Delta)....

(1) one rule for all airline pilots, not “carving out” the cargo and supp.
(2) a minimum 10-hour rest period
(3) a reserve rest rule for all pilots
(4) having multiple segments and circadian rhythm disruptions addressed
(5) establishing limitations on duty periods, flight duty time, and block time based on the fact that excessive working hours affect flight safety
(6) requiring the operator to prepare and publish reliable schedules.

“We must have a single rule for all types of flying: domestic, international, and supplemental,”

Maximum Flight Time Limits:
Time of Report Maximum Flight Time (hours)
0000–0459 7
0500–0659 8
0700–1259 9
1300–1959 8
2000–2359 7
Flight Duty Period: Non-augmented Operations

Time of Report Maximum Flight Duty Period Based on # of Flt Segments
1 2 3 4 5 6 7+
0000–0359 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
0400–0459 10 10 9 9 9 9 9
0500–0559 11 11 11 11 10 9.5 9
0600–0659 12 12 12 12 11.5 11 10.5
0700–1259 13 13 13 13 12.5 12 11
1300–1659 12 12 12 12 11.5 11 10.5
1700–2159 11 11 10 10 9.5 9 9
2200–2259 10.5 10.5 9.5 9.5 9 9 9
2300–2359 9.5 9.5 9 9 9 9 9
.....next step in the process toward issuing a Notice for Proposed Rule Making......
 
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Colonel Savage

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So we can report at 0700 after 10 hours off the clock and fly 4 legs for 9 hours hard time and put in a 13 hour duty day.

Wow, where can I sign up for that? Oh. wait...
 

General Lee

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So we can report at 0700 after 10 hours off the clock and fly 4 legs for 9 hours hard time and put in a 13 hour duty day.

Wow, where can I sign up for that? Oh. wait...

Welcome to Southwest. And, instead of 4 legs make it 6 legs too. (gotta be productive to get 123 "trips" in a month) At least the $$$ is good, and your wives in Lubbock will thank you for your support. FANTASTIC.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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ualdriver

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What will the NPRM look like compared to the secret ARC report?

ALPA to Pilots: Read Your Union’s Fatigue Recommendations to the FAA
September 24, 2009
........
“While it remains our desire to not address any of the information that has been recently leaked in interviews to the press,” said Capt. Don Wykoff (Delta)....

(1) one rule for all airline pilots, not “carving out” the cargo and supp.
(2) a minimum 10-hour rest period
(3) a reserve rest rule for all pilots
(4) having multiple segments and circadian rhythm disruptions addressed
(5) establishing limitations on duty periods, flight duty time, and block time based on the fact that excessive working hours affect flight safety
(6) requiring the operator to prepare and publish reliable schedules.

“We must have a single rule for all types of flying: domestic, international, and supplemental,”

Maximum Flight Time Limits:
Time of Report Maximum Flight Time (hours)
0000–0459 7
0500–0659 8
0700–1259 9
1300–1959 8
2000–2359 7
Flight Duty Period: Non-augmented Operations

Time of Report Maximum Flight Duty Period Based on # of Flt Segments
1 2 3 4 5 6 7+
0000–0359 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
0400–0459 10 10 9 9 9 9 9
0500–0559 11 11 11 11 10 9.5 9
0600–0659 12 12 12 12 11.5 11 10.5
0700–1259 13 13 13 13 12.5 12 11
1300–1659 12 12 12 12 11.5 11 10.5
1700–2159 11 11 10 10 9.5 9 9
2200–2259 10.5 10.5 9.5 9.5 9 9 9
2300–2359 9.5 9.5 9 9 9 9 9
.....next step in the process toward issuing a Notice for Proposed Rule Making......

And to add to the above, this must be the leak being referred to. It looks like the ATA, RAA, and CAA couldn't wait to petition for what they wanted. If you read it, they want exactly want ALPA appears to be fighting- "carve outs" for cargo flying, for example. Their duty periods/flight time limitations for 2 pilot domestic also appear to be longer in many cases (not shorter than what ALPA wants, surprise, surprise), and they want to be able to reduce minimum rest to 9 hours in actual operations from the 10 that ALPA wants. If they define "rest" as block to block, then 9 hours is a joke and more of the same. 10 hours is borderline enough IMO as it probably should be 11 or so.

Anyway, take a look at what the ATA wants- in some cases more of the status quo. This is an excellent example of what your ALPA dues money pays for- a seat at the table and it appears that important people are listening to us for a change.
 

Colonel Savage

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Of course the 10 hrs will block to block, if you want that you'll have to get it into your contract.

Lemme know how that works out for you.
 

Draginass

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This is WORSE. But what do you expect from a company owned union like Delta ALPA.
 

BILL LUMBERG

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This is WORSE. But what do you expect from a company owned union like Delta ALPA.


Please enlighten us on how you came up with that drive-by cheap shot??
 

atpcliff

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Hi!

I am flying international rules in Kenya.

11 hours MIN rest, PERIOD.

Maxy duty day 15 hours (no flight time restrictions). If our duty is over 14 hours, our rest is 16 hours, REGARDLESS of our flight time.

cliff
NBO
 

thruthemurk

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Hi!

I am flying international rules in Kenya.

11 hours MIN rest, PERIOD.

Maxy duty day 15 hours (no flight time restrictions). If our duty is over 14 hours, our rest is 16 hours, REGARDLESS of our flight time.

cliff
NBO

And on Mars its 15 hours rest MINIMUM....PERIOD.

However, here on earth, In the United States, it is currently 9 hours min rest -reducible to 8 with a 15 hour duty day following that rest with no limit on legs. Try to deal with reality, please.
 

PCL_128

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This is WORSE.

That's ridiculous. How in the hell is it worse?

But what do you expect from a company owned union like Delta ALPA.

DALPA had nothing to do with this. This was an ALPA International project.
 

Colonel Savage

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And on Mars its 15 hours rest MINIMUM....PERIOD.

However, here on earth, In the United States, it is currently 9 hours min rest -reducible to 8 with a 15 hour duty day following that rest with no limit on legs. Try to deal with reality, please.

The point I easily took from ATP's post is that there are third world countries that have better rest requirements than the good ol' "highly civilized" USA.

BTW Africa is on earth, so your Mars analogy was really dense.
 

Draginass

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That's ridiculous. How in the hell is it worse?

DALPA had nothing to do with this. This was an ALPA International project.

At 12000 pilots, DALPA is ALPA. After selling out to Anderson on the last contract, they now want a NINE flying hour unaugmented day? Do you have any idea of how many furloughs that's going to cause at the majors? Many flights now that need an FB will be 2 pilot and an awlful lot of lines of flying will instantly go away, much to the delight of DALPAs management masters.

I can't believe those idiots would even consider a nine hour day, if not only for a fatigue standpoint, but also for putting so many more of their own members on the street for the benefit of some senior turds and to the detriment of safety. UFB.
 
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Colonel Savage

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Maybe the new commuting laws will compensate for it, and it will be a draw.
 

PCL_128

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At 12000 pilots, DALPA is ALPA.

Not even close.

After selling out to Anderson on the last contract, they now want a NINE flying hour unaugmented day? Do you have any idea of how many furloughs that's going to cause at the majors?

None. ALPA's analysis shows that staffing needs at the majors will be flat, and staffing needs at some regionals will increase. The 9 hour duty day only applies to peak circadian times, and the rest of the day reduces the max block time, plus duty days during the entire day are drastically reduced. The net result is flat staffing requirements for the majors.
 

Lear70

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The only caveat I have with those proposed rules is that the 10 hours rest isn't listed as "time behind the door" in your hotel.

Everyone knows that 10 hours of block-to-block rest, at MOST, is only about 8 1/2 hours or so behind your hotel room door, and that doesn't include time to get a meal. HUGE missed opportunity IMHO...
 

Skywest Pylot

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Not even close.



None. ALPA's analysis shows that staffing needs at the majors will be flat, and staffing needs at some regionals will increase. The 9 hour duty day only applies to peak circadian times, and the rest of the day reduces the max block time, plus duty days during the entire day are drastically reduced. The net result is flat staffing requirements for the majors.

How does making me fly 9hrs in a day vs 8hrs decrease fatigue? Get the max duty time down to 12hrs but leave the max flight hour limits the Hell alone!
 

PCL_128

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How does making me fly 9hrs in a day vs 8hrs decrease fatigue?

Because the flight time alone doesn't increase fatigue, unless you're flying a lot of legs, and ALPA's proposal reduces the allowable duty day if you're flying more than 4 legs during the time of the day that allows 9 hours of block. The times that ALPA has recommended are all based on scientific evidence from countless studies.

Get the max duty time down to 12hrs but leave the max flight hour limits the Hell alone!

Who the hell wants 12 hours? Most of ALPA's recommended duty limits are less than 12 hours.
 

IBNAV8R

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Let's just have limits of 4 hours max duty and 2 hours of flight time and no more than one landing. Mandatory 20 hours BEHIND THE DOOR, and company provided massage services to ensure adequate relaxation. Airlines would have to hire 4 times as many pilots which will now all be required to have 5,000 hours, an ATP, a Master's degree in primitive cultures and at least one combat ribbon from the military. Furthermore, each pilot would have to live within 20 minutes of the crew room (or, if no suitable housing is available within the specified time, the airport parking lot).

If we are to achieve a 100% risk-free aviation system, the airplanes would remain stationary and we'd still worry about getting sued when a passenger slips in the jetway.
 
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