• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

Fatigue Ruling

azpilot

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
376
Total Time
+1
Well the courts ruled in our favor. I still find if quite pathetic of the airlines to think that a day longer than 12 hours duty time is safe. I know it is all about the allmighty dollar but maybe eventually the government will be able to mandate better work rules for those who do not have a strong union. Better rules might actually create a few more jobs as well. I am just waiting for the next appeal.

--------

US Appeals Court Backs FAA Pilot Flight-Time Rules

WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- The Federal Aviation Administration can enforce rules that limit pilots to a 16-hour work day, including unexpected delays, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.

The decision was a setback for two airline trade groups, which challenged the FAA's interpretation of the regulations. Under the rules, pilots can be on duty for 16 hours, eight of them actually flying.

The Air Transport Association and the Regional Airline Association argued that the pilot's workday should be calculated based on original flight schedules, regardless of any delays.

They said the FAA overreached two years ago when it interpreted the rules to cover actual flight conditions. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia disagreed, ruling 3-0 that "the FAA's more expansive interpretation is not unreasonable."

The agency said it would begin cracking down on violations last fall. Airlines have argued that the FAA's action could lead to longer flight delays or cancelations.

The Air Line Pilots Association, which represents nearly 60,000 pilots at carriers in the U.S. and Canada , intervened in the suit on behalf of the FAA.
 

skydiverdriver

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
869
Total Time
5000+
Good job ALPA. Now, here is something I think we can all agree on. Isn't it amazing what you can do when you all get together and work against the real enemy?
 

Timebuilder

Entrepreneur
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,625
Total Time
1634
It's amazing to see something so obvious being upheld. It's the ACTUAL time that makes one tired, not the "original schedule".

Railroad workers have a twelve hour max, unless a real emergency happens, such as recovering after a train accident: moving cars with cranes, rewiring signals, replacing track. In that case, it's sixteen hours.
 

surplus1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Posts
5,649
Total Time
25K+
azpilot said:
I still find if quite pathetic of the airlines to think that a day longer than 12 hours duty time is safe.

My friend, if it was 12 hours they were pushing to keep, we would all think that was paradise found.

It is more than 16 hours that the want to keep. In fact they really want no limit at all and have been doing that for many, many years.

Pilot pushing, particularly of rest rules, is a way of life (in one form or another) at most airlines. Corporate flying and air-taxi flying is not immune either.
 

ksu_aviator

GO CATS
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
1,327
Total Time
4100
Seperate but related issue

I also heard that the FAA wants to include the time spent traveling to and from the hotel on a RON as part of the duty time.

That would be great. Some of our overnights have 20 min shuttle rides. Thats 40 minutes of non rest. If we are on Reduced Rest that makes a huge difference.
 

Tim47SIP

Serving for the USofA
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Posts
1,157
Total Time
10,000
If it is considered "local buss service" (whatever that means), the FAA considers that to be rest. We have an overnight in GNV that takes 30 min each way from the airport to the hotel. So if the van is on time, that is only 7 hours at the hotel for reduced rest or 6 1/2 with a late van. The FAA should state that the van ride does not count for the rest period. At this time, there are no plans to incorporate this provision. Sad really, as we will have to wait for another accident (as a result of this) to occure for them to react. :(
 

pilotyip

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
13,629
Total Time
14000
Travel that is local in nature

What if you have min rest at your domicile and you drive your own car, is that on or off duty? You live 45 miles from the airport its a one hour drive. Do we get to adjust our rest if we go to a restaurant before we check into the hotel? When we start reducing the duty hours, do we spend more time on the road getting legal, because the airplane has to keep moving to make money? With all the new pilots needed to cover trips because of reduced duty and no more flying, how do we pay these pilots, cut everyone's pay, raise the fares?
 

Tim47SIP

Serving for the USofA
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Posts
1,157
Total Time
10,000
Dood, you totally missed the point! Good luck to you.:eek:
 

skypine69

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Posts
796
Total Time
6900
Ok, here are the facts: Until the FAA grows some balls of its own and starts creating rules that dont let pilots fly around dead tired there will be another crash. Yeah it might mean more pilots and higher ticket prices. Hopefully we can educate the traveling public what this issue is about prior to the crash and we dont have to do the whole security closeing the barn door after the horse has left the barn thing again. 9 hours (or as little as 8) is simply not enough time to get sufficient rest to go fly around the next day. We, as professional pilots, owe it to ourselves, our families, and our pax to not accept trips that will put us in the situation. Example, I am a reserve captain at my airline, and scheduling can pretty much do what they want to me. However, I have made it clear to them that I will not accept CDO's (continous duty overnites). I dont feel that I can safely do my job in the morning after only a couple of hours of sleep. As an ATP, I will be in violation if I accept a trip when I am not fit for duty. The company cannot force to you to violate FAR's!!!
Be safe!
 

ksu_aviator

GO CATS
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
1,327
Total Time
4100
Tim---I saw an article in a Dallas News paper about how the FAA is trying to include local bus service in duty time. They even fined AA for it. Of course AA is fighting it.

Pilotyip---You have a choice on where you live, you don't have a choice of hotels. That is why travel to and from your house will never be included. Could you imagine including the time people spend jumpseating to and from work? Some people I know spend 6 or more hours commuting. Commuting would be impossible. However, a bus ride to the hotel is a duty you are performing for the company, so to speak. So the FAA is trying to say it isn't rest.

It won't change the number of pilots needed, it'll just change the way schedules are built. We have a 14 hour duty day rule in our contract and our company has no problem meeting that. Of course the bus ride isn't included, but most of our hotels are 5 minutes from the airport. Only a few require a longer drive. I didn't mean to imply that we always have a 20 min ride to the hotel. Just that it happens from time to time.
 
Top