Fatigue at CAL?

[densoo]

How many inflight heart attacks this year?

Taxi incidents.

90+ hours a month hard flying, not rigged.

Now this....

Israeli air force jets scramble toward Continental Air flight

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israel air force fighter planes scrambled Wednesday to intercept a U.S. airliner after it lost communications with air controllers, security officials said.
The Continental passenger plane was flying in from the U.S. when it lost contact. Following anti-terror procedures, two Israeli warplanes intercepted the plane and guided it back over the Mediterranean Sea until communications were restored, Channel 10 TV reported.
When it was determined that there were no problems on board and the pilot was in control, the plane was allowed to hand at Israel's international airport, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the incident.
FIND MORE STORIES IN: Israeli Air Force
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

When is the company going realize that something has got to give.

 

[RocketRob]

Somebody forgot the 200nm prior to Ben Gurion security check in radio call. oops.

 

[LJDRVR]

Not to mention not having 121.5 up on number two. Maybe the 777 crowd could spend a little less time complaining about how new-hires don't belong in their IRO seats and a little more time focusing on basic airmanship.

 

[LJDRVR]

When is the company going realize that something has got to give.

Our airmanship is in our own hands, not the company.

I agree with you that something has got to give, but we cannot afford to make these kind of mistakes, period. If PBS has us so fatigued that we are almost getting shot down, then we better start calling in fatigued.

Personally, I think the onus lies on us here. This is our wake up call. Are you going to point fingers at CAL or start looking at your own discipline?

Cheers.

 

[RocketRob]

I think the Israelis scramble the 16's without calling you on guard. The check in call is to the air force, not the approach controller. I've heard of people checking in as Charlie Alpha Lima 90 (i.e. CAL90) and they (israelis) didn't question it, they just sent up someone to investigate (with missiles). I guess the moral of the story is, don't try to be cute, don't get lazy; cause they don't f&*k around over there!

 

[LocoPiloto]

Not to mention not having 121.5 up on number two. Maybe the 777 crowd could spend a little less time complaining about how new-hires don't belong in their IRO seats and a little more time focusing on basic airmanship.

Basic airmanship. One of your 737s crossed 17R in DFW the other day without permission. Ground was screaming at them to turn left and not taxi across 17C.

Anyway after the 4 or 5th set of taxi instructions they figured what to do. I know new airports can be confusing, but these two were out to lunch. Maybe fatigue was the issue.


Loco

 

[flatspin7]

90 hours a month every month wears on you. No matter what you fly!

 

[LJDRVR]

90 hours a month every month wears on you. No matter what you fly!

I agree, but are we going to sit around and bitch about it, or start looking at our individual airmanship and what measures we can take to prevent these kinds of stupid mistakes.

LocoPiloto, Wow, American never had a runway incursion?

 

[nimtz]

Not to mention not having 121.5 up on number two. Maybe the 777 crowd could spend a little less time complaining about how new-hires don't belong in their IRO seats and a little more time focusing on basic airmanship.

How long have you been at CAL again? Do you have any experience in CAL 777 flight operations? Why don't you wait till the facts of this incident come out before you hustle to analyze it based on your few months of line flying at CAL...

 

[Ty Webb]

No disrespect toward the CAL guys, but this string reminded me that two weeks ago, while on about a 10 mile final to 27L in ATL, we had a CAL 737 (who was supposed to be landing on 28) drift all the way over our final, just 500 feet above us, and I mean directly above us. Very ugly. . . . We got an RA, don't know why he didn't react . . . . we told tower we had an RA and were descending. . . . .

I just dropped the gear and stayed clear of him until the 28 controller must have woken him up. They were on a different frequency, but I'm sure a phone number was given.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I know one solution - hire more pilots.

 

[catIIIc]

I know one solution - hire more pilots.

Another soulution is we need work rules, guys will not last to 6o let alone 65 if we keep this up.

 

[LJDRVR]

How long have you been at CAL again? Do you have any experience in CAL 777 flight operations? Why don't you wait till the facts of this incident come out before you hustle to analyze it based on your few months of line flying at CAL...

You know something? You're right. Although I'm perfectly capable of and entitled to comment on this issue regardless of my background, employer and seniority, there's the whole question of "should". The fact remains I was a little pissed when I first read about this incident and considered the consequences, and spoke out in a manner that does not accurately reflect my personality.

My apologies for acting like an ass and thank you for pointing it out. (Seriously.)

Now that I've spit the chunks of leather out of my mouth, allow me to say this:

There are a lot of issues at play here. This goes far beyond a simple crew error, and gets into areas such as training culture and procedures design. My fervent hope is that CAL's management possesses enough leadership to treat these guys with some empathy, and put the details of this incident out there in the "daylight" for all Continental's pilots to learn and benefit from.

In the aviation industry, there is far too often a failure to have any sort of institutional memory over some of our mistakes, instead of us embracing the fact we are human and error prone. I'm not suggesting the crews of any particular airline go around wearing events such as these as badges of honor, but they are issues that need to be formally addressed, dissected, discussed and not forgotten by Aviators.

 

[EMBpilot]

In the crew room the other day:

Continental Airlines:
Work Hard

Fly Tired

Die Young


We got to remember and tell all the 95+ hours pick upers that rules are more important than pay rates. You can always get the pay back.

 

[densoo]

Our airmanship is in our own hands, not the company.

I agree with you that something has got to give, but we cannot afford to make these kind of mistakes, period. If PBS has us so fatigued that we are almost getting shot down, then we better start calling in fatigued.

Personally, I think the onus lies on us here. This is our wake up call. Are you going to point fingers at CAL or start looking at your own discipline?

Cheers.

Yes, we have to look at our own discipline. But even the company knows that something is up. The new CAL "Legacy Class" that all pilots have to go to this year introduced a new term: "driftdown."

As it was defined/discussed in the class, driftdown is essentially external pressures causing the slow decay of CRM during a flight and a pairing due to loss of focus and concentration leading to lapses in discipline and possible clearance deviations (and always the possibility of something "more serious")

A fine new concept to introduce into the CRM concept and our lexicon, but when the external pressures are caused by the company itself then you've got to wonder what's up.

I think a better term would be "pushdown." A company pushes its employees as far as it possibly can before employee moral or retention starts affecting the bottom line and the bosses' bonuses. In this particular industry though the bottom line involves people being alive or dead.

And that pushing is what is going on throughout the industry. One airline after another has gutted the work rules of its pilots (sometimes, unfortunately, with the pilots' cooperation). The industry as a whole wants to see how far it can push the pilots before the operation breaks.

Nearly every day you read about the red flags. A cancelled flight because the captain lost his composure during a cell phone call. A heart attack in flight. A heart attack in the jetway. Taxi incidents. Many more I'm sure.

The irony in all this? The Legacy Class is mandatory but essentially unpaid. Talk about causing driftdown. How do you think the pilots feel about working a PBS driven 90+ hours per month then taking one of their 12 days off for a class that tells then not to "let the pressure affect your judgment and performance" and ohbytheway you're not getting paid for this.

This is just a new and modern way of saying "do whatever it takes and push it to the limit and over" but if something goes wrong you will get no backup from us because you are responsible for saying "no more, I'm fatigued" (why didn't you?)--and even losing pay for that (which is a whole nother story at CAL).

 

[Ex737Driver]

This reminds me of a thread when I was landing in ATL and an Cirtrus wouldn't get out of the dang way.....................

 

[Ty Webb]

A fine new concept to introduce into the CRM concept and our lexicon, but when the external pressures are caused by the company itself then you've got to wonder what's up.

I think a better term would be "pushdown." A company pushes its employees as far as it possibly can before employee moral or retention starts affecting the bottom line and the bosses' bonuses. In this particular industry though the bottom line involves people being alive or dead. . . . . . . . .

. . . This is just a new and modern way of saying "do whatever it takes and push it to the limit and over" but if something goes wrong you will get no backup from us because you are responsible for saying "no more, I'm fatigued" (why didn't you?)--and even losing pay for that (which is a whole nother story at CAL).

I think we can all identify with this . . . I know I can.


.

 

[Ty Webb]

This reminds me of a thread when I was landing in ATL and an Cirtrus wouldn't get out of the dang way.....................

Funny . . . when going into ATL and I know it's Citrus, or ASA. or Delta, I know they will clear by the second high-speed, and so I'll tighten it up a little closer . . . .

Now, a Citrus guy in your way going into IAH, or JFK, that I could believe . . . those are not our regular stomping grounds. . . . if you see me there, it's because something is very wrong in Gotham City . . . .

 

[Jonny Sacko]

So what's the story with your guys TA? On another thread it seemed a lot of guys were singing the management blues. Are you guys going to hang tough or be pushed by the loud minority?? I hope you guys hang tough. We all need to squeeze management since they are all rolling in money and laughter from US the workers! Hang tough brother!

 

[nimtz]

You know something? You're right. Although I'm perfectly capable of and entitled to comment on this issue regardless of my background, employer and seniority, there's the whole question of "should". The fact remains I was a little pissed when I first read about this incident and considered the consequences, and spoke out in a manner that does not accurately reflect my personality.

My apologies for acting like an ass and thank you for pointing it out. (Seriously.)

Now that I've spit the chunks of leather out of my mouth, allow me to say this:

There are a lot of issues at play here. This goes far beyond a simple crew error, and gets into areas such as training culture and procedures design. My fervent hope is that CAL's management possesses enough leadership to treat these guys with some empathy, and put the details of this incident out there in the "daylight" for all Continental's pilots to learn and benefit from.

In the aviation industry, there is far too often a failure to have any sort of institutional memory over some of our mistakes, instead of us embracing the fact we are human and error prone. I'm not suggesting the crews of any particular airline go around wearing events such as these as badges of honor, but they are issues that need to be formally addressed, dissected, discussed and not forgotten by Aviators.

Tried to PM, but your mailbox was full. So I'll throw it on here. My contention with your post was that it hit our guys on 90 pretty hard. As I eluded to before, it isn't fair to do this until the facts come out. I don't take news stories from the media or any government as the true story. The company is now even saying our guys made every position report required.

I will agree with you in one regard. No blame on this incident should lie in fatigue/PBS/second divorce/etc...

No matter how cr@ppy life issues might be, a true professional knows how to keep his/her focus when it comes to safety at our office. As to our culture, I'll let you guys talk about that all day. I'm no expert, but I see the same personalities at CAL that I've seen/heard at every airline. That being said, by in large I have seen great leadership and CRM thus far on the 73.

Basically I said what I said, because it seemed our guys were getting the feet to the fire awful fast. I know I would be p'od if I was ever involved in an incident and the Monday Morning QBing started based on a news blurb. I keep that in mind when it comes to judging the actions of others. It's a respect I try to carry towards my coworkers. Do apologize for harsh tone, but I felt some perspective was needed at the time.

 

[EWR_FO]

The EWR 777 Chief Pilot sent out an e-mail saying all radio procedures had been complied with, there is more to the story.

 

[ToThePain]

The EWR 777 Chief Pilot sent out an e-mail saying all radio procedures had been complied with, there is more to the story.

Thanks EWR,

Heres another suggestion: How about we all act like the professioanl pilots we claim to be and wait to see the full story before we decide to "Monday Morining QB" these guys. EWR is correct in is statement regarding the radio procedures. Put the rope and torches away.

 

[densoo]

This can't be legit. It is so accurate it is as if an actual line pilot wrote it. April fools?

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...Tabid=256#jump

The NTSB, this week, issued recommendations pointing to airline industry worker fatigue as a serious safety threat. The recommendations support ALPA’s longstanding position that it is time to modernize flight- and duty-time regulations.
“ALPA commends the NTSB for making a powerful statement for aviation safety with today’s recommendations,” says ALPA’s president, Capt. John Prater. “This NTSB action is more evidence that fatigue is among the most pressing aviation safety issues of our time.”
The NTSB recommendations were issued in the context of the Comair 5191 accident, but they underscore a decades-old national aviation safety issue. Current federal aviation flight-time, duty-time, and rest regulations are a dated patchwork of rules developed over the past 60 years.
The regulations are fundamentally flawed and fail to take into account today’s science, flight schedules, aircraft equipment, and travel distances. In addition, through the bankruptcy process, work rules that helped safeguard airline pilots against fatigue by limiting flight and duty time have been eviscerated at many airlines.
“Because many pilots have had their salaries cut by 40 to 60 percent, they must fly more hours to make up for that lost pay,” continues Prater. “Many airline managements are making a bad situation worse by hiring as few pilots as possible, scheduling pilots to work the legal workday limit and beyond, and punishing pilots who call in sick because of fatigue.”
When flight- and duty-time limits are pushed to the extreme, unplanned events such as poor weather and mechanical failures can create situations in which pilots may be forced to choose between flying fatigued or risking possible punitive action from their managements.
“The United States needs realistic, science-based flight- and duty-time limits that make certain airline pilots in both passenger and cargo operations are rested and ready to perform under pressure,” concluded Prater. “Today’s recommendations mean that the FAA can seize the opportunity to lead the aviation community toward a modern approach to reducing fatigue. ALPA stands ready to work with FAA and the airline industry to address pilot fatigue.”