Fatigue and Aviation

[dsee8driver]

mmm..

Ya know...the reference in my post was quoted from the previous msg. I should have left that out..but nevertheless...FAR are so confusing that mistake can easily be made in interpretation... Thank god for that NASA form...lol

 

[Singlecoil]

Somebody should post a poll:

I have fallen asleep in the cockpit:

Never:

Once:

Twice:

Three Times:

Etc:

 

[Jeff G]

I just don't understand how this ties into the max 16 hour duty day. Does this mean that while the max duty day is 16 hours in the USA, flight time cannot exceed 8 hours UNLESS augmented crews are onboard? It seems strange how you can have a max 16 hour duty day, yet a max 8 hour flight time day (what's the other 8 hours for?)

This last bit is easy to explain once you realize that those eight hours of flight usually occur over multiple legs. The "other 8 hours" are everything that happens in your day when the airplane isn't off the blocks, and therefore counting as flight time. It's unusual to be scheduled for a 16 hour duty day, since any delay would require you not to complete the last leg if you're not yet airborne. However, it's certainly possible to schedule 8 hours of flying within a 14 hour duty day. Possible, but tiring. The "other 6 hours" are spent before, after, and between flights. Here's a hypothetical schedule:

0700 Show time, crew brief
0715 Preflight, boarding (grab bagel for breakfast)
0800 Flight ABC-DEF (1.5 hrs)
0930 Arrival, deplane, board next flight
1015 Flight DEF-ABC (1.5 hrs)
1145 Arrival, deplane, board next flight (someone runs for lunch)
1230 Flight ABC-GHI (2.0 hrs)
1430 Arrival, deplane, board next flight
1515 Flight GHI-ABC (2.0 hrs)
1715 Arrival, deplane
1730 "Productivity break" (enough time for dinner)
1900 Preflight, boarding
1945 Flight ABC-JKL (1.0 hrs)
2045 Arrival, deplane, post-flight
2100 End of day (wait for hotel van)

This is a 14 hr duty day, with 8 hrs of flying over 5 legs. This is a pretty busy day, and it gets busier if there are any delays whatsoever. In that case, dinner will likely also be grabbed on the run. Please note the productivity break. This is a common occurrance, necessary to schedule crews efficiently over a sometimes irregular flight schedule. You're on duty but not flying. It's just long enough to take a breather and a not too leisurely dinner. You're also not getting paid for this.

Please also note that we left our heroes at curbside at 2100 waiting for a hotel van. Their rest just began, and if (heaven forbid) they have minimum rest before starting their day again at 0600, this is time that would best be spent sleeping.

Let's say this is the case, and let's also say that everything goes off like clockwork. (This is a fantasy, considering that the whole day has also gone off like clockwork). The van is waiting for them at the curb at 2100, and everyone arrives at the close-by hotel (more fantasy) at 2110, and everyone gets to their rooms at 2115. Everyone then magically falls asleep by 2130? No, guess again. Nobody who is alert enough to work can also drop off that fast. Try 2200, best case. The alarm/wake-up call goes off at 0500. You get ready for work and show in the lobby at 0545 and somehow get to the close-by airport and whisk (yeah, right) through security in time to show at 0600.

So, putting it all together, you have "only" a 14 hr duty day, and 8 hrs of flying. You are legally scheduled for 9 hrs of rest, but only sleep 7 hrs. You are then legally ready to go out and do it again. And remember, this is the best case scenario. If the hotel is 30 mins away, that's sleep lost. If it takes longer to get through security at that airport, you leave the hotel earlier, and that's sleep lost. If you're scheduled for normal rest (usually 9 hrs, sometimes more) and you're running late, under certain circumstances that can be converted to reduced rest (as little as 8 hrs), which (guess?) means even less sleep.

So at a guess, I'd say, no, the current regs aren't adequate, mostly because "rest" means time away from the aircraft, not real rest. The length of the duty day isn't often a problem in and of itself. Long days paired with minimum rest is a real problem, though.

And something that's not often taken into account is that if you reduce the allowable duty day too much, then you inevitably end up with less efficient schedules, which means you have to work more days for the same pay, which means more time in hotels rather than at home. Just speaking for myself, I'd rather have the option for longer days (with adequate rest periods) just so I can have more time at home. In a perfect world, you could fly 29 hrs over four 10 hr days, three times a month, and take most of December off, but the schedules only get that good if you're pretty senior. The max duty day also has to look out for the rest of us.

 

[TurboS7]

I would rather have a 16 hour day followed by a 20 to 30 hour layover, and do that for a week. The 14 hour day followed by short rest just kills me, like you said it is all the other stuff that just cuts into your sleep cycle and causes fatigue.BTW in charter you don't go to an airplane on the gate, it is out remote somewhere then you have to get it to the gate. On paper our duty day starts 1. 5 hour prior to departure, oh well.

 

[dsee8driver]

Nice sumary..

You summarized it pretty well T7. For us in the supplemental ondemand charter, one thing you must get used to is sleeping when you HAVE to not when you want to. We have had days where we wake up like a normal human being at 8 am from a full night rest and takeoff at 10 am to Ireland which is only 7 or so hours. Then we get 10 hrs off and then might have a longer day where you go to England, offload, load and then go back to US another 8 hrs. Although the days were not really long during the 10 hrs you had off in Ireland you had to force yourself to sleep some otherwise the next long day of about 14 hrs or so would kill ya.

Coil said:

Somebody should post a poll:

I have fallen asleep in the cockpit:

Never:

Once:

Twice:

Three Times:

Etc:



How about adding all the time??

Here is a common example, this will be me next Tuesday:

Monday
0700 wake up at home get kids ready for school
0830 return from dropping kids off
0900 go to gym for an hour
1130 shower, pack for a week and a half have lunch
1330 make sure you dont leave anything and head for airport for a 1630 commercial flight to TOL
1900 arrive in Detroit in this case
2.5 hr layover
2200 flight to TOL arrive at 2245
Get bags and wait for ride I get to Hub at 1130 or so
Unwind shoot the $hit with fellow crewmembers and get latest rumors.
at 0030 go to bed in the bunkroom fully dressed untill 0330
0330 get up get paperwork head to A/C at 0400
departure at 0505 to DFW
0630 Arrive DFW add hour for load unload
0730 depart for Houston
Arrive Houston at around 900
Get to hotel and get to bed by 10 am sleep until 5 pm, go get grub, return, SSH ($hit, shower, shave) Get ready to leave hotel at 8 pm local to do it again and not return to hotel till next day in am.

The times above are all eastern times except from arrival in DFW where its Central.

Pretty tired day and until the 3rd day or so n this schedule you willdrag a$$...

BUT thats the life of the Order of the Sleepless Knights! The Freight Dogs.

You have had 3 hrs of sleep and over 24 hrs awake.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pilot fatigue

Pursuant to the excellent comments above, see if you can gather comments about "stand-up overnights." You'll have excellent grist for your paper.

 

[Singlecoil]

Boy Jeff G, it sounds like you JetBlue boys need some better work rules....I wonder how you could do that....

 

[Jeff G]

Boy Jeff G, it sounds like you JetBlue boys need some better work rules....I wonder how you could do that....

Look again. That was a hypothetical legal but tiring pairing, meant to illustrate a point. I was specifically thinking of my past life at a regional, not JetBlue.