Fatigue and Aviation

[uwochris]

Hey guys,

I am doing another paper of fatigue and aviation, this time for my Aviation Law class. I will be examining how fatigue affects pilot performance and will look at the current standards to determine if today's limitations are appropriate.

I have tried to find some stuff related to the USA regarding these issues. I have however become very confused and hope someone can clarify the FAR:

Specifically, I am uncertain as to the duty day limitations for American pilots. I have read that the FAA has recently increased the duty day to 16 hours... is this correct? In Canada, our max duty day is 14 hours. I just thought it was odd how you guys would use 16 hours- it just seemed a little too high.

I also read the following from an ALPA website:

"Current domestic FAA regulations limit scheduled flight time to a maximum of eight hours in a single duty period, with an exception allowing the eight-hour limitation to be exceeded "due to circumstances beyond the control of the carrier."

I just don't understand how this ties into the max 16 hour duty day. Does this mean that while the max duty day is 16 hours in the USA, flight time cannot exceed 8 hours UNLESS augmented crews are onboard? It seems strange how you can have a max 16 hour duty day, yet a max 8 hour flight time day (what's the other 8 hours for?)

Thanks in advance.

ps- what does everyone think of ALPA's recommendation to decrease the max duty day to 12/10 hours?

 

[chperplt]

I have read that the FAA has recently increased the duty day to 16 hours... is this correct?

Not correct.

If we're talking straight 121 ops... not supplemental, there are no set duty days per se. FAR 121.471 says that at all times we must have at least 8 hours of look back rest. Meaning every minute or your day, you must be able to look back 24 hours and have a minimum of 8 hours of rest.


As far as flight time limitations, 121.471 also says that we are limited to 8 hours of flight time between rest periods. Under subpart (G) we can exceed 8 hours under certain conditions that are out of the companies control, but only under those conditions.

We can be scheduled to fly 8 hours or less, have 8 hours off duty, and then fly another 8 hours or less all within a "24 hour" period.
Specific hours of rest fall under subpart (B) of 121.471.

Send me a PM if you have specific questions you have. I did quite a bit of work on this issue for my Masters degree.

 

[TurboS7]

Burning eyes, headache, neckache,upset stomach,fatique so bad you can't spell it. Memory loss, affairs, alcholism,pills, caffiene, spats, broken marriages, poor judgement during layovers, blurred vision. All just to bring you schedule, profitablity, and ability to travel the world. Anyone who complains about what we get paid needs to sit in our mocassions for a month. We talk about the good just to cover up the bad. You may only work ten days a month but it takes you to other 20 just to become normal again. The regs a joke, the job, that is just the way it is and will be. The earth is round, maybe if it was flat this job wouldn't be that bad. Oh well, I love it anyway. Cheers.

 

[dsee8driver]

We can be scheduled to fly 8 hours or less, have 8 hours off duty, and then fly another 8 hours or less all within a "24 hour" period.
Specific hours of rest fall under subpart (B) of 121.471.

The above statement seems to be a bit confusing. You cannot be scheduled to fly more then 8 hours in any 24 hr period unless there is a break in between of double your flight time. Even then if you do go over 8 in 24 you will have 16 hrs off once you land.

Example at our place: We had a trip from TOL-SJC that took 4.5 hrs. You went to hotel and got 11 hrs of rest, more then double the 4.5 you flew. Then you returned to TOL with another 4.3. By then you landed with 8.8 in the same 24 hr period. The company then "THOUGHT" that you could return to SJC because you had doubled your flight time rest in the hotel and your 24 hr clock was restarted then. The FEDs stepped in and said in a written statement: You can fly to SJC and get 4.5 hrs but to be legal to fly over 8 in that 24 hr period(which meant return to TOL) you must have double your flight time rest when you arrived there. Which we did, we had 11 hrs off. That made us legal to return to TOL with 4.3. But when we arrived in TOL we turned into a pumkin and need 16 hrs off min.

Our company operates under Part 121 Supplemental. 16 hrs is the maximum duty day PERIOD for domestic operations. No special circumstances. Under International rules there is no duty time limits. But there is a flight time limit for International of 12 hrs.

 

[Andy Neill]

You cannot be scheduled to fly more then 8 hours in any 24 hr period unless there is a break in between of double your flight time.

OK, usually I let strange ideas go by, but this is SO far off the mark, I'm going to have to call you on it. Here is 121.471(b) verbatim:

Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept any assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceeding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:

9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of fllight time
10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time
11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.

Section c goes on to discuss how these can be reduced to 8/8/9 if a compensatory rest is scheduled at the conclusion of the trip but no later than 24 hours after the beginning of the reduced rest.

Now, can you please show me the section in 121.471 that talks about the rest being twice the flight time?

 

[TurboS7]

I just read the other part about what are the 8 hours for , I laughed so loud my wife thought I was pissed off about something. Let me tell you what the extra eight hours are for. I'll run you through our last trip. I get called to fly as FO for another captain, we are always running out of FO's, I guess they don't like to fly. Senority reigns and since this guy is one number senior to be he sits in the left seat, myself in the right. But that is O.K. they are going to pay me an extra $750.00 just to do the trip because we have no FO's. I get up at 0600 and have breakfast with my wife. I leave for the airport at 0700 in the morning. I arrive at the airport at 0800 all ready to go. Our official show time is 0930 but I arrive early to get everything in order. I make copies of all our ground handling, Jepp charts, and get the paperwork together for the captain and FA's. I get a brief from the ground handlers to work out some problems with the flight. Everyone else arrives at 0930 and we brief. We jump in a limo and leave from MIA to PBI on I-95, due to traffic on Sunday morning that takes 2.5 hours. We arrive at PBI just as our airplane arrives at the FBO. It gets unloaded while we change crews and preflight the aircraft. It has to be cleaned which takes an hour while we wait. We finally get the airplane cleaned and we get clearance to taxi to the gate. We get on the gate and are there only 15 minutes when they inform us UAL is coming in so we change the gate. That take another 15 minutes. The wrong fueler shows up and we get that changed so we don't pay another .30 cents per gallon, that equiviates to 1500USD. Just as they start to load us UAL and American shows up . Because we are a charter they get priority. We load the passengers, finally in frustration I go out to see how things are going. They only have one guy loading bags. So I throw bags to get things moving. Then I see something to may amazement. The UAL crew next to us comes down and starts helping throw bags on their airplane too, the handler is just short of people. So there we are side by side UAL and us throwing bags on our airplanes a 737 and 757 while the pax watch out the window. Finally things are done and we push about 1.5 hours late. We arrive at our destination only to be told we have to layover. That sounds easy ha,ha. We have to fuel the aircraft on the gate and winterize it then taxi remote. I send the captain with the FA's so he can get the required rest. Myself and the mechanic finally get to the hotel at 2030 for a 0400 get up and 0500 show. I get something to eat and the bar is full of flight crews, no wine or beer tonight, not enough time. I get in bed at 2200 and just start to snooze off. Oh shoot, I forgot to fax the log sheet to crew sked and maint. I get up get my clothes on and go down and fax the sheet. Things are really hoppin at the bar, lucky regional pilots. Back to bed and stare at the ceiling. Just starting to fall asleep another flight crew comes into the room next door making all kinds of noise. Earplugs, and all still no sleep. shucks it is 0030, finally sleep RING, RING it is 0400. time to get up . To the airport for another 16 hour day, I love my job.

 

[TurboS7]

2nd day

Show time 0500 get a quick ride to Signature. Jump in the airplane and depart empty at 0600 for GGG four hours away. Arrive at 0900L. On the ground 1.0 hour pick up passenger fly to STL arriving at 1200L. On hour turn and off the DLH arriving at 1500L. Another hour turn and we are off to Miami with an empty airplane. We arrive at Miami at 1845L and get to the hangar at 1900 local. We leave the office at 2000 arriving home at 2100. And this is just a domestic trip. And for you FAR guru's the last leg was a dead positioning leg Part 91 IAW FAA and our FOM. At least it was all daylight flying, unusual for us.

 

[dsee8driver]

Strange...

Andy said..
OK, usually I let strange ideas go by, but this is SO far off the mark, I'm going to have to call you on it. Here is 121.471(b) verbatim:

Maybe I did explain it clearly. But strange and off the mark? You remark was off the mark because you obviously did not read entire post where it said we operated under Supplemental certificate.

Sec. 121.503

Flight time limitations: Pilots: Airplanes.

(a) A certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane for eight hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during those eight hours.
(b) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
(c) Each certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve each pilot from all duty for at least 24 consecutive hours at least once during any seven consecutive days.
(d) No pilot may fly as a crewmember in air transportation more than 100 hours during any 30 consecutive days.
(e) No pilot may fly as a crewmember in air transportation more than 1,000 hours during any calendar year.
(f) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, the certificate holder may, in conducting a transcontinental nonstop flight, schedule a flight crewmember for more than eight but not more than 10 hours of continuous duty aloft without an intervening rest period, if--
(1) The flight is in an airplane with a pressurization system that is operative at the beginning of the flight;
(2) The flight crew consists of at least two pilots and a flight engineer; and
(3) The certificate holder uses, in conducting the operation, an air/ground communication service that is independent of systems operated by the United States, and a dispatch organization, both of which are approved by the Administrator as adequate to serve the terminal points concerned.

Amdt. 121-253, Eff. 2/26/96



Sec. 121.505

Flight time limitations: Two pilot crews: airplanes.

(a) If a certificate holder conducting supplemental operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.

Once again, as per my response. Our intervening rest period of 11 hrs was more then double our flight time and more then the min of 8. There fore we were legal to be scheduled for over 8 in a 24 hr period.

 

[Wang Chung]

Hey, it's pretty alarming to catch yourself nodding off in the cockpit, and then you look over to see the other guy doing the same thing.

I work for a Supplemental carrier, and dsee8driver explained those rules pretty well (His example actually cleared up the rules a bit for me). They're confusing enough that the "company" and the pilots can have different interpretations, which makes the job interesting.

The 16-hour Supplemental duty time reg (121.507b)reads "No pilot…may be on duty for more than 16 hours during any 24 consecutive hours." It doesn't say that the 16 hours must be consecutive; they can be broken up, which can tear up your sleep/rest cycle.

Check out dsee8driver's schedule; let's pretend he departed at 8:00 in the morning, rested in SJU from approximately noon to midnight, then flew back to TOL at night, maybe getting back at 4 or 5 AM. Think about that. It's a legal schedule in terms of flight/duty/rest times, but it's pretty disruptive on your circadian rhythm regardless if you are a day-shifter OR a night-shifter type.

The last leg was a dead positioning leg Part 91

This is the dirty little secret that I never heard about until I started flying freight: the part 91 "tail-end ferry". The common interpretation of the regs is that ferrying the empty plane back home after the revenue legs doesn't count towards the 121/135 flight time limitations. Your long day of flying just got longer (but still within duty time limits).

I met a 135 guy once who said that at his company the tail-end ferry time didn't count towards flight time OR duty time limits!! Interesting.

Fly Safe.

Wang

 

[Andy Neill]

dsee8driver said:

Maybe I did explain it clearly. But strange and off the mark? You remark was off the mark because you obviously did not read entire post where it said we operated under Supplemental certificate.

Right you are. My post was based on the notion that you were addressing the provisions of 121.471(b) as cited in your post. There is certainly no provisions for rest = double the flight time there. I appreciate your references to 121.503 and 505. I guess it all boils down to knowing what game is being played before the rules are discussed.