Fast Track to the Regionals

[Crash Pad]

Dirk, that is an outstanding analogy. This is such a "cry me a river" topic that I can't believe still appears every couple of months. I understand the value of putting in your dues, but life is a biatch and then you marry one...or two.

 

[GogglesPisano]

"Captain Cadet?" LOL!

 

[dabandermac]

Had some cuties behind the counter if I remember correctly. Any still there?

you betcha--gotta love FSU.

 

[viper548]

I'm not trying to take one side or the other here, but if you're going to make an argument, make a good one. This is argument doesn't hold any water. Have you been to the emergency room lately? Where do you think med. school students go right after they graduate? That's right. They go to the emergency room to practice on you and your loved ones. How did they get into medical school? They threw a whole wad of cash at the school (and some good grades too) Yes they have some supervision, but no more than a fresh F/O out of whatever f*cking school they just came from has with a captain sitting 2 feet away all the time. All the European airlines hire their pilots with 0 hours and then train them straight from an Archer to a 737 or larger aircraft and they seem to manage safely. I'm not saying I'm not with you that it sucks that people are essentially "buying" into a job, because I certainly worked my @ss off flying freight through all the crappy weather for a couple years first. However, your argument sucks.

Not everyone gets into med school though. Yeah, it costs a lot of money, but they don't just let anyone in that has a wad of cash.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

you betcha--gotta love FSU.

Any one of them have a website? One particular redhead in about '96 or so did. Holy moly... Long stops where made in TLH to "stretch our legs" and "check the weather." The pool table was schweet too.

 

[joe_pilot]

I'm not trying to take one side or the other here, but if you're going to make an argument, make a good one. This is argument doesn't hold any water. Have you been to the emergency room lately? Where do you think med. school students go right after they graduate? That's right. They go to the emergency room to practice on you and your loved ones. How did they get into medical school? They threw a whole wad of cash at the school (and some good grades too) Yes they have some supervision, but no more than a fresh F/O out of whatever f*cking school they just came from has with a captain sitting 2 feet away all the time. All the European airlines hire their pilots with 0 hours and then train them straight from an Archer to a 737 or larger aircraft and they seem to manage safely. I'm not saying I'm not with you that it sucks that people are essentially "buying" into a job, because I certainly worked my @ss off flying freight through all the crappy weather for a couple years first. However, your argument sucks.

Ok, Dirk. Like you, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but your argument doesn't hold water either. Sorry. First of all, whether you meant to or not, you made it sound like most Physicians go into emergency medicine. Only about 20% go into the field. Next, comparing a new FO's supervision by his or her Captain to a Doctor's is just not valid. There are many more layers of direct supervision in medicine than there are in aviation. If a new FO had a senior FO, his Captain, a check airman and the chief pilot in the cockpit or at least on the aircraft, that would be fairly similar to the supervision of a new physician. Lastly, though pilots are required to go through a substantial amount of training just to get the job, the average doctor has went through at least 11 years of post-secondary education and must constantly pursue, like pilots, continuing education.

Not trying to start a doctor vs pilot thread, but I had to call shenigans on your argument since you were doing the same to sluming.

Ok, maybe I lied; I actually do have an opinion on PFT. I think accelerated programs are not the best for the profession. It takes, in my opinion, an amount of seasoning to develop a good pilot. The amount of time varies by the individual and the quality of the experience(s). I do however, know several individuals who were PFT and are excellent pilots. I'm not outright against it, but am fairly skeptical about it.

-J

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Ok, Dirk. Like you, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but your argument doesn't hold water either. Sorry. First of all, whether you meant to or not, you made it sound like most Physicians go into emergency medicine. Only about 20% go into the field.

Actually you are incorrect. After med. school every doctor works as an internist, usually doing at least one rotation in the ER!

Next, comparing a new FO's supervision by his or her Captain to a Doctor's is just not valid. There are many more layers of direct supervision in medicine than there are in aviation. If a new FO had a senior FO, his Captain, a check airman and the chief pilot in the cockpit or at least on the aircraft, that would be fairly similar to the supervision of a new physician.

You're way off here as well. Internists who are working in the E.R. are not constantly supervised. They have supervision, but not standing over them all the time. Unlike a newbie pilot who is only left alone in the cockpit when Cappy has to drop a deuce. The captain certainly doesn't have to be a check airman or the chief pilot to tell the F.O. he's f*cking up. Poor analogy there my friend.

Lastly, though pilots are required to go through a substantial amount of training just to get the job, the average doctor has went through at least 11 years of post-secondary education and must constantly pursue, like pilots, continuing education.

I certainly hope you're not suggesting that piloting an aircraft is anywhere in the same neighborhood as difficult as being a doctor! Pilots take a year to train because that's all it takes to get basic training. After that, it's a matter of gaining experience. That's exactly why doctors do internships prior to being released on their own. They know all the book stuff from their 11 years in school, but now they need a little practice with a helping hand every now and then. Pilots really aren't that dissimilar.

Not trying to start a doctor vs pilot thread, but I had to call shenigans on your argument since you were doing the same to sluming.

I hereby call shenanigans on your "shenigans." Whatever that is.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Not everyone gets into med school though. Yeah, it costs a lot of money, but they don't just let anyone in that has a wad of cash.

They may let anyone with a wad of cash INTO flight school. But we all know that having the money doesn't mean you'll pass the required tests to make it all the way. I certainly washed my fair share of bad apples out when I was instructing. I didn't want to do it, but some people are just wasting their time trying to fly.

 

[viper548]

They may let anyone with a wad of cash INTO flight school. But we all know that having the money doesn't mean you'll pass the required tests to make it all the way. I certainly washed my fair share of bad apples out when I was instructing. I didn't want to do it, but some people are just wasting their time trying to fly.

I disagree. I had a student that was constantly failing checkrides and stage checks. I don't know how, but he's a CFI now. There's no limit to how many times you can re-take a checkride. That type of record won't get you into an airline, but it might not stop you from getting into a PFT outfit.

 

[joe_pilot]

Actually you are incorrect. After med. school every doctor works as an internist, usually doing at least one rotation in the ER!

You're flat out wrong Dirk. Every Physician doesn't work as an 'internist' after Medical School. Every Medical student does a Trauma rotation during their third year of Medical School. After completing Medical School, if they wish to practice medicine they enter an internship in their chosen discipline. Not all graduates choose to practice medicine, however. Some become Physician Scientists, which doesn't always require an internship.

You're way off here as well. Internists who are working in the E.R. are not constantly supervised. They have supervision, but not standing over them all the time. Unlike a newbie pilot who is only left alone in the cockpit when Cappy has to drop a deuce. The captain certainly doesn't have to be a check airman or the chief pilot to tell the F.O. he's f*cking up.

Medical Students are under constant supervision by a hierarchy of progressively more experienced Physicians. If and when the proverbial deuce hits the fan, these Students have expert help available immediately. I never argued that an FO needs a check airman and the chief pilot in the cockpit. I was correcting your analogy to make it......more analgous. I agree that if an FO screws up, the Captain will say something. But it is supposed to be an environment where neither pilot has to supervise the other one. They are supposed to be partners. In the first few months off of IOE, there's no way a new FO is going to know it all. I know I sure made my share of mistakes concerning the operation of the aircraft. The Captain shouldn't have to teach basic decision making though. The goal of medical school IS to teach that basic decision making. None of my Captains had to teach me about the IFR system or dealing with icing conditions or any other of a couple hundred situations that I had already learned through experience. Like I said earlier, there are some people who come out of PFT with a good head on their shoulders. But they just don't have the experience or seasoning that someone who has higher time with a wider variety of flight experience (particularly PIC instrument time) has. Once again though, that is not why I joined this debate.

Poor analogy there my friend.

I agree. It is a poor analogy. But let's look at who really made the poor analogy.

Have you been to the emergency room lately? Where do you think med. school students go right after they graduate?...they have some supervision, but no more than a fresh F/O...

versus

What other type of profession can you buy your way into for a wad of cash? Would you let Doctor with 1 year of a crash course operate on yourself or a loved one? NO! .

The problem is that he was just asking a rhetorical question to make a point. I don't think he was really implying that you would let a person with limited training operate on your loved ones, nor was he implying that they are even able to do so. He used a debate technique where he asked a common sense question with a yes or no answer that just about any one would answer no to. He asked a loaded question that required an opinion. My problem is not with you or your position. It is with your inability to articulate why you disagree with him.

Short version:
If I tell you that you're gonna get carpal tunnel syndrome from all the porn you've been downloading would you tell me that I was wrong because you had an ergonomic keyboard??

You would have missed the point. Just like you missed the point he was trying to make. Then, the technique you used to defend your position and facts were just wrong. I wasn't gonna point out the style issue, but you said my analogy was wrong. I initially just wanted to correct your facts.

Then there's this one:

I certainly hope you're not suggesting that piloting an aircraft is anywhere in the same neighborhood as difficult as being a doctor! .

and

Pilots really aren't that dissimilar. .

Dude, you completely reverse your own position.
Finally:

I hereby call shenanigans on your "shenigans." Whatever that is.

Ok, I wasted a South Park quote with my poor spelling. For that I apologize.

No hard feelings I hope.

-J