Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Can you share some of whatever you have to make me so detached from reality? I'm about to take the next hit and you continue to ramble on about some irrelevant falsehoods that do nothing more than try to micromanage a speck on a fly's a___.
In the company's last legal brief, the company claims it is not bound by the 51% vote in favor of the IBT and the Flex pilots remain at-will employees. Now let her your B.S. science degree try to marginalize that fact.

 

[Mach94]

You want reality? Talk to the 38 pilots without a job and may not get a VSP to support their families in their ultimate time of need. And the probably 50 to 100 more that will get the same fate in the immediate future. That is the reality.

As for the rest - You mean the fact that the company is right? Of course the company's right. The teamsters were voted in by the hair of their teeth, but Flexjet pilots have no contract. They most certainly are still at-will employees until they have a contract. They have no weingarten-type rights, no representation for disciplinary action or if they get fired, and of course, no furlough protection. The union vote changed nothing, will change nothing, until the JCBA is complete. And since both the company and the union have both adopted the slash and burn policy and neither want to take any prisoners, don't expect anything... anything... to change until that JCBA is complete or Options closes its doors. If I were a bettin' man I would put my money on the doors closing before a JCBA could be had, and delays to take place until a decert vote can be accomplished and the company gets rid of the 1108 once and for all.

You must not be affected by today's news, so you don't care about if you were on the street how the union is attempting to take away up to a year's pay from you. In the name of negotiations. Ricci found the perfect domino to get the union to tip on its own to destroy itself.

 

[Praetorian]

Well Flexible I have no doubt someone at Flex said everything I said word for word. I know and have talked with quite a few of the pilots on furlough and they feel the exact same way I do. However, I can assure you, I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore? And, on top of that, the whole "career expectations" thing would then of course be very good grounds for another law suit that would get rid of the DOH integration the union has done. So yeah. Not a flex pilot.

Look, I do not deny that Flexjet needs a union. In fact, Ricci's actions prove that you need one. My whole point is i'm pissed that the union did the exact worse thing they could do, to destroy the solidarity we had. And took from the pilots now without a job, and the probably 100 or so more that are now going to follow post haste, which will positively include yours truly. And because of the reasons I stated in the above paragraph, you can bet that a decert vote will happen. Ricci out-played our impulsive, emotional union leadership and gave the union the perfect bait they couldn't pass up. It's infuriating. And as a MiGs we are helpless but to sit and now watch the ship go down holding and shaking our heads.

So did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.

 

[slowtation capt]

Well Flexible I have no doubt someone at Flex said everything I said word for word. I know and have talked with quite a few of the pilots on furlough and they feel the exact same way I do. However, I can assure you, I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore? And, on top of that, the whole "career expectations" thing would then of course be very good grounds for another law suit that would get rid of the DOH integration the union has done. So yeah. Not a flex pilot.

Look, I do not deny that Flexjet needs a union. In fact, Ricci's actions prove that you need one. My whole point is i'm pissed that the union did the exact worse thing they could do, to destroy the solidarity we had. And took from the pilots now without a job, and the probably 100 or so more that are now going to follow post haste, which will positively include yours truly. And because of the reasons I stated in the above paragraph, you can bet that a decert vote will happen. Ricci out-played our impulsive, emotional union leadership and gave the union the perfect bait they couldn't pass up. It's infuriating. And as a MiGs we are helpless but to sit and now watch the ship go down holding and shaking our heads.

I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore?

 

[Mach94]

So did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.

What do you think?! Have you been paying attention? And why the hell would giving pilots a VSP not allow the union to preserve their bargaining rights? I'll tell you what they did do if they are successful at blocking the VSP. They were able to preserve those of us who are or are about to be furloughed to have a vote in the up and coming eventual decertification vote. Brilliant.

 

[Mach94]

I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore?

You forgot the part where I said if I was a flexjet pilot genius.

 

[Praetorian]

What do you think?! Have you been paying attention? And why the hell would giving pilots a VSP not allow the union to preserve their bargaining rights? I'll tell you what they did do if they are successful at blocking the VSP. They were able to preserve those of us who are or are about to be furloughed to have a vote in the up and coming eventual decertification vote. Brilliant.

Because allowing the company to unilaterally make deals with individual pilots over wages and working conditions would set a legal precedent that would nullify our collective barganing rights under the RLA and elimiminate the protections established in Section 1 (Scope) of our CBA.

I'll ask again. Did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.

 

[Mach94]

Because allowing the company to unilaterally make deals with individual pilots over wages and working conditions would set a legal precedent that would nullify our collective bargaining rights under the RLA and eliminate the protections established in Section 1 (Scope) of our CBA.

No it wouldn't. In fact that is a ridiculous statement based with no merit and no legal precedence. The truth is that scope would remain intact. The NMB would not throw out the complete CBA because the union allowed the company to give the pilots who get furloughed a VSP that is not even required in the contract and the union allowed it to happen. No judge would do so either. You know why? Because of the word "voluntary." And the fact that allowing the VSP may in fact reduce or prevent furloughs (INvoluntary). No way that would happen. What a ridiculous statement! Now who's throwing FUD?! Good grief. That's just what you tell yourself and the minions (the union's version of an FoK?!) who just follow the union blindly and do not do any research for themselves. The union F'd up on this and it will cost us everything. It is not wrong to point that out.

The company deserves the lawsuit that it has now. Ricci has violated RLA law. But the VSP did not have to be a part of this. This was the union acting in anger, and in attempting to punish Ricci, it instead committed fratricide and punished the pilots who lost their jobs and killed the union's solidarity in the process. It is despicable and unforgivable. Don't believe me still? Well, if so then you're an idiot, but let's give it a week and see what happens. The pilot group is just as pissed at the union as it has ever been with the company now. Do the math.

I already answered your question. Hope you put in for the VSP since the deadline's past and you just may be getting a pink slip. I know I probably am.

And as for worrying about violating scope?! What good is it to protect the contract if in doing so it means burning the company to the ground? Both the union and the company are in a fight to the death. Flight Options will die, it is inevitable and will happen probably in months not years. The only question remaining is whether or not SLI will prevail and the flight options pilots who will soon be out of a job and have no company at all get to infiltrate and swell the Flexjet pilots' seniority list, or if it is thrown out as not in compliance with McCaskill-Bond like the Company claims (and I doubt), and if that happens, he can then sue for some sort of change in who the merger committee is, and the merger fight continues.... and thus the 9-month clock hasn't even started yet, and tick tock here comes the NMB clock for decertification. And that clock expires in what, 18 months? Think Options will last that long? I don't.

If the union was smart they would withdraw their injunction now that they see that the company is about to furlough more in droves. The path to pursue I would think now would be to sue the company if they do not honor the VSP as stipulated. Not just for the original 38, but every furlough that happens after. Wouldn't that be a better thing for the union to be fighting for? (sigh)

 

[Praetorian]

No it wouldn't. In fact that is a ridiculous statement based with no merit and no legal precedence. The truth is that scope would remain intact. The NMB would not throw out the complete CBA because the union allowed the company to give the pilots who get furloughed a VSP that is not even required in the contract and the union allowed it to happen. No judge would do so either. You know why? Because of the word "voluntary." And the fact that allowing the VSP may in fact reduce or prevent furloughs (INvoluntary). No way that would happen. What a ridiculous statement! Now who's throwing FUD?! Good grief. That's just what you tell yourself and the minions (the union's version of an FoK?!) who just follow the union blindly and do not do any research for themselves. The union F'd up on this and it will cost us everything. It is not wrong to point that out.

The company deserves the lawsuit that it has now. Ricci has violated RLA law. But the VSP did not have to be a part of this. This was the union acting in anger, and in attempting to punish Ricci, it instead committed fratricide and punished the pilots who lost their jobs and killed the union's solidarity in the process. It is despicable and unforgivable. Don't believe me still? Well, if so then you're an idiot, but let's give it a week and see what happens. The pilot group is just as pissed at the union as it has ever been with the company now. Do the math.

I already answered your question. Hope you put in for the VSP since the deadline's past and you just may be getting a pink slip. I know I probably am.

And as for worrying about violating scope?! What good is it to protect the contract if in doing so it means burning the company to the ground? Both the union and the company are in a fight to the death. Flight Options will die, it is inevitable and will happen probably in months not years. The only question remaining is whether or not SLI will prevail and the flight options pilots who will soon be out of a job and have no company at all get to infiltrate and swell the Flexjet pilots' seniority list, or if it is thrown out as not in compliance with McCaskill-Bond like the Company claims (and I doubt), and if that happens, he can then sue for some sort of change in who the merger committee is, and the merger fight continues.... and thus the 9-month clock hasn't even started yet, and tick tock here comes the NMB clock for decertification. And that clock expires in what, 18 months? Think Options will last that long? I don't.

If the union was smart they would withdraw their injunction now that they see that the company is about to furlough more in droves. The path to pursue I would think now would be to sue the company if they do not honor the VSP as stipulated. Not just for the original 38, but every furlough that happens after. Wouldn't that be a better thing for the union to be fighting for? (sigh)

So, here are the relevant sections from our CBA:

1.1(a) Pursuant to the certification by the National Mediation Board in Case No. R-7072 dated March 3, 2006, this Agreement is entered into by and between Flight Options, LLC (hereinafter ?Flight Options? or ?Company?) and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Airline Division (hereinafter ?Union?) as representative of Captains and First Officers of the Company, (hereinafter ?Pilot(s)?) pursuant to the terms of the Railway Labor Act, as amended (hereinafter the ?Act?) in the mutual interests of the Pilots and the Company to promote the safety and continuity of air transportation, to further the efficiency and economy of operations, and to provide for orderly collective bargaining pertaining to rates of pay, rules or working conditions, between the Company and its Pilots.

1.1(b) This Agreement shall supersede all previous Agreements by and between the Company and the Union or any other labor organization or individual with respect to the Pilots described above and shall constitute the sole Agreement between the Company and the Union. Any and all agreements made by the parties shall be reduced to writing and signed by the authorized representatives. An ?authorized representative? of the Union shall be any authorized agent of the Teamsters Airline Division, including the President of the Executive Board of Local 1108, or his designee.

There are a couple of import things to take note of in this language. In the first paragraph it says that, the company and the union are to bargain over, "rates of pay, rules or working conditions, between the Company and its Pilots". In the second paragraph it says our CBA is the, "sole Agreement between the Company and the Union".

With me so far?

So if the union were to allow the company to simultaneously violate the first two foundational paragraphs of our CBA by bargaining directly with individual pilots and unilaterally establishing a VSP and making unilateral agreements outside of our CBA, it absolutely would establish a president that it could do these things anytime it wanted to in the future. This would nullify our ability to collectively bargain in the future and make our union meaningless.

But you haven't answered my question. Since nothing the union has done would prevent you from putting in for the VSP why haven't you done so?

 

[greygoose]

Because allowing the company to unilaterally make deals with individual pilots over wages and working conditions would set a legal precedent that would nullify our collective barganing rights under the RLA and elimiminate the protections established in Section 1 (Scope) of our CBA.

This is exactly where the confusion is, this is not a contract extending employment for "X" amount of years. This is a resignation agreement thus not falling under the same rules that you are arguing.