FAR 91.200 section

[Jet_Dreamer]

in part 91.200 something it lists the equipment required for a IFR airplane to be legal. one of these items is a CLOCK. since this clock is mounted in the panel. if this clock breaks and an inop sticker is put over it, this makes the a/c not legal for ifr flight, right? ok, suppose the clock is still broken and you put a 1.99 kitchen timer in the a/c, this does not make the a/c legal, right? thanks for your input.

 

[Goffer]

91.205

Nope, the A/C is not legal for IFR flight. The same scenario could be applied to VFR requirements, if the magnetic compass is inop. I can't go to the local truck stop and pick up a .99 compass and call it good.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I might disagree with the aircraft not being legal for IFR flight. If I have a timer and a watch on me which I always do when going IFR, I can't imagine I'm not legal for flying IFR. The mag compass and a simple clock aren't the same. Although I've never heard of the scenario occuring I'd be surprised if the Fed's would bust you on this.

 

[Jet_Dreamer]

your two replys are what make this topic complicated. the FAR says a clock displaying hours, minutes and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation. it doesnt say your casio watch or kitchen timer. i actually tried calling the local fsdo, but those FAA clowns just dont answer the phone. keep those opinions coming.

 

[TXCAP4228]

FAR 91.205 says:
Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.

(a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c)(3) and (e) of this section, no person may operate a powered civil aircraft with a standard category U.S. airworthiness certificate in any operation described in paragraphs (b) through (f) of this section unless that aircraft contains the instruments and equipment specified in those paragraphs (or FAA-approved equivalents) for that type of operation, and those instruments and items of equipment are in operable condition.

(excerpt from d(IFR).2.) >>>> A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.

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My meager and humble analysis
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Since the FAR says the aircraft must "contain", I'd say that a clock on your wrist is "contained" in the airplane. My digital watch is way more reliable than the second hand of the clock in the panel of the 1975 Cessna 172 anyway.

I'd file IFR with my watch as the required clock.

 

[kybur]

An installed clock is required.

A $1.99 clock from a truck stop should complete the requirement if it is installed in the plane and noted in the weight and balance. I would hope that an STC is not required for such a modification.

 

[midlifeflyer]

FWIW, from a 1981 FAA Legal Counsel opinion. The question dealt with 135 operations, but the answer references part 91 as well. The numbering of the regs has changed:


1. The aircraft is airworthy except the clock installed in the cockpit is inoperable. Would flight be allowed under Section 135.179 if there were no MEL and if the pilot in command possesses a reliable operating watch on his person? If so, who has authority to release the flight?

If the aircraft is type certificated for instrument flight rules, a clock is required by Section 91.33(d). However, even if the aircraft is not type certificated for instrument operations, other requirements apply.

Section 21.181 provides in pertinent part that an airworthiness certificate is effective so long as the maintenance, preventative maintenance, and inspections are preformed in accordance with Parts 43 and 91. Section 91.27(a)(1) provides in pertinent part that no person may operate an aircraft unless it has within it a current airworthiness certificate. Section 91.165 provides in pertinent part that no person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition, and that between inspections, defects in the aircraft must be repaired as prescribed in Part 43. Thus, to maintain the validity of the airworthiness certificate without a change to the type certificate, the clock must be operating for all operations, and operations with the clock inoperative would violate Sections 91.165, 135.3, and 135.143(a). A wristwatch would not substitute for the clock. The MEL and the letter of authorization for its use under Section 135.179(b) constitute a supplemental type certificate and provide a way to operate with the clock inoperative if the MEL so authorizes.

 

[citdrver]

If it is in stalled it has to be operative, unless there is an MEL!

No MEL, inop componenet=No go for IFR

I think!?!?

 

[172driver]

Can't MEL any equipment which is required by regs anyway.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Here's a twist...

What if there is more than one installed clock?

Look at the standard set of avionics in a 172R or S model. The VOR and ADR receivers all have clocks with digital readouts. There are at least 4 installed clocks on board.

There are two separate issues: What equipment is required for certain types of operations (91.205) and what equipment that is installed on the airplane (whether required or not) needs to be in working order (91.213).

 

[PCL_128]

Every single piece of equipment onboard an aircraft must be operating in order to be legal for any flight, IFR or VFR. The only way you may operate an aircraft with inop equipment is if it has been placarded "INOP" and an entry made in the aircraft logbook. When the next inspection rolls around, the inop equipment must either be fixed or permanently removed with another entry made in the logbook.

Even if you are going on a VFR flight, if there is an inoperative VOR receiver in the aircraft that is not placarded, you are flying illegally. You can look at 91.213 for all the details.

P.S. Of course the rules are slightly different when operating using an MEL.

 

[Buzo]

When the next inspection rolls around, the inop equipment must either be fixed or permanently removed with another entry made in the logbook.

This is incorrect, the item can be further deferred. Items can remain placarded during and after an inspection.

 

[PCL_128]

This is incorrect, the item can be further deferred. Items can remain placarded during and after an inspection.

I got into it with the Fort Lauderdale FSDO about that a couple of years ago. After talking to several of the inspectors down there I kept getting the answer that the equipment must be either removed or repaired during the inspection. Don't know what Ok City would say, but the FSDO was pretty adament about it.

 

[Buzo]

I don't know, 91.405 makes it pretty clear that they can be deferred longer. It is the same thing our FSDO POI and our DOM say.

 

[Buzo]

91.405 refers to part 91.213(d)(2). 91.213(d)(2) talks about operations that don't have MEL's.

I am not refering to items required under 91.205 or items required under the type cert. I am talking about items that are standard equip or additional. If an airplane comes with an autopilot, and it is does not work it can be disabled while remaining in the airplane and still be legal after an annual if it is placarded inop.

So you remove it, placard it, or fix it

Pretty much what I was saying. I may not be an IA, but that doesn't mean I don't work closely with the one my club uses. Being an IA also doesn't make you an expert, just like a CFI or ATP isn't an expert.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't recall the number of the AC but I will get it artwork tomorrow.

It's AC 91-67 available at
www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

This can be a very complex issue. I deal with it every day, and the AC has a good flow chart that encompasses all these scenarios.

Actually, I have a minor nit with the flowchart in the AC. It has you move from whether it is required by POH equipment list in turn to whether it is required by the Type Certificate for the airplane (if you can find it) to whether it's required by AD to whether it's required by 91.205 (or the other operational rules) to removing and placarding it if applicable.

Then, (3 hours later if you've managed to find the type certificate) the pilot decides if it's safe to fly without it.

I tend to start with whether I think it's safe to fly without it, regardless of whether it's technically legal or not, then to 91.205 etc (since it's the shortest list and most of us were =required= to memorize TOMATO FLAMES and FLAPS) before proceeding to the more detailed stuff.