Families of Pilots Killed File Lawsuit

[FL420]

Do you wanna base this on any facts other than your opinion?

Sure. Three incidents come to mind.

1. Pre 9/11 I was riding on an ERJ jumpseat from ORD to TUL. The three of us were chatting away in level cruise when ATC came over the speaker saying "Callsign XXXX, where in the hell are you going?" Seems someone neglected to check that the route in the box was the same route as in the clearance.

2. Sitting in on a large regional's groundschool I was astounded to hear the instructor tell the class that the PNF was to get on the radio and make the Out & Off company calls to dispatch after the A/C was cleaned up passing 2500 feet AFE. When he was questioned about the safety of going heads down in a busy terminal area like ORD and reminded that such a procedure was a violation of the sterile cockpit rule he responded: "It's okay, we have TCAS."

3. On one of my very first flights out of IOE as a newhire on the A320 I was flying with a young captain who had been hired a few years before as a Captain right out of the left seat of a large regional turboprop. The A320 was his first swept wing jet.

We had had some ground delays and had been in our seats for quite sometime before release. The weather was kinda crappy out of ORD. I noticed during climbout that he constantly fiddled with the Speed Knob on the MCP by slowing below the FMC calculated ECON climb speed trying to increase his rate-of-climb. He was trying to stay VMC by barely topping approaching cloud tops.

We were just leveling at FL390 and I had to pee like a racehorse so I went back to the lav. Everything looked normal when I left. When I came back a few minutes later I immediately noticed we were descending through about FL380. He was spinning knobs on the MCP and cussing up a storm. I asked him if ATC had given us lower and he said no. He said the autopilot was all screwed up.

One look at the speed tape told the story. If we had been in anything other than a FBW aircraft we would have probably stalled instead of mushing out of an altitude we couldn't maintain at our GW and TOGA power. I thank God for the Low Speed Protection features of Normal Law built into the A320. Fortunately he didn't argue when I told him to speed up and ask for lower. I got back into my seat as quickly as I could.

A subsequent discussion about the VN(sorry, don't remember how to do subscripts) diagram and high altitude swept wing aerodynamics revealed he had never been trained on the subject by any company he had worked for previously. He was a very good, relatively mature and conscientious pilot. He was just poorly trained for the equipment and environment in which he was operating.

Next time I get you and your family to your destination safely, come up and hit me in the face and then thank me for the ride. Cause that's just what you did to me and every regional pilot that does there job the same way you say you do by saying that.

I didn't say all regional pilots were immature, inexperienced or ill-trained. Nor did I say most of them were. I will say that I think too many are, both for my taste and for the good of the profession. I also reserve the right to take personal risks while not allowing my family to be exposed to those same risks.

Someone on this board has a signature something like this I think is apropos:

The truth only hurts when it should.

 

[PCL_128]

1. I think everyone has made a dumb mistake like that before. Nothing to get all worked up over.

2. I don't especially care for making out/off calls so low, but it's not a violation of sterile cockpit. The FAA said many, many years ago that they are related to operational needs and are not a violation of the sterile cockpit rules. Since you don't know that, should I be afraid to get on your airplane? That would seem to be your attitude.

3. This story just tells me that the A320 operator you are working for is pretty poor in it's new hire screening and Captain upgrade training. Why did someone so poor get to be in the left seat of that A320? Do you work for JetBlue? If so, should I never fly on JetBlue because of it? Again, that's your attitude it would seem.

Look, I'm not really defending regionals per se. In fact, I agree with you that the quality of pilots and training is far superior at the majors. However, that doesn't mean that the regionals are so unsafe that you should avoid flying on them. I think the safety records of most regionals speak for themselves. You are simply overreacting.

 

[Flyerjosh]

You spineless scumbags aren't worthy of touching a Piper Cub! So-called pilots pissing on the graves of the dead!

You dare to sit in judgement of dead pilots and their families, as though you represent the manufacturers. Why don't you donate your wages and life insurance to the manufacturer's legal defense fund. Then, when you die in a wreck, they can fend off lawsuits from your surviving family members.

Cool. Color. I can use it too.

As for sitting in judgement of the dead pilots and their families, they did nothing but bring it on themselves. The issue had died on these forums- shortly after the NTSB made their preliminary findings public. The lawsuit from the family did nothing but bring the issue to light again.

As for defending the manufacturers and insurance companies, I call it as I see it. This lawsuit affects me. It affects each of us, in the form of reduced pay, higher overhead, and higher ticket prices.

It also serves to lower the public's opinion of pilots as a whole, just like any other incident that casts aviators in a bad light (such as the America West pilots who were jailed for intoxication).

The CRJ is a reliable airframe. The engines are battle tested (literally). There are hundreds of CRJs flying thousands of flights EACH DAY, without incident. That by itself says something.

There should be better screening and training, not ridiculing the dead after the fact. I agree that the crew handled the situation poorly, but no one has the right to say they would have done better had they been there instead.

I don't disagree that there could have been better training and screening for the crew. However, to say that we would have done just as poorly in their situation makes a bold statement. PARTICULARLY CONSIDERING THEY WERE THE FIRST CREW TO DOUBLE FLAME OUT A CRJ.

I've heard of some stupid things being done in an airplane. Some have resulted in accidents, all of which were unfortunate. However I have little patience for frivolous lawsuits that are filed with the intent of manipulating the system for big payoffs outside of court.

I hope this one does go to trial, and the judge sees it for what it is and throws it out. IMHO, the family will be lucky if GE/Bombardier didn't countersue on this one for legal costs and defamation.

 

[Dangerkitty]

2. I don't especially care for making out/off calls so low, but it's not a violation of sterile cockpit. The FAA said many, many years ago that they are related to operational needs and are not a violation of the sterile cockpit rules. Since you don't know that, should I be afraid to get on your airplane? That would seem to be your attitude.

I have never heard of the FAA agreeing to this. Can you please provide some documentation that states such?

If it was many many years ago I am sure I would have still been with the airlines and would have known about it.

 

[PCL_128]

I have never heard of the FAA agreeing to this. Can you please provide some documentation that states such?

If it was many many years ago I am sure I would have still been with the airlines and would have known about it.

Don't have any documentation off hand, but it's probably available on the net somewhere if you know where to look. This was taught at both airlines that I've worked at, so I doubt it's incorrect. Besides, it's only common sense. Making out/off times is part of your official duties, so it wouldn't conflict with the reg anyway.

 

[millhouse21]

Our GOM (FAA Approved) says it's OK to make out/off calls below 10000 ft.

 

[seahorse]

The facts and accident data will have to be scrutinized in this case.

Regardless of what the two pilots did and how they acted, GE may be held liable if it's proven that the engine or some engine part malfunctioned. If Bombardier and GE state that an engine will restart under certain conditions, and it's proven that there is a serious engine defect which prevents a restart, damages may be awarded.

If I remember correctly, Bombardier satisfied the inflight engine restart requirement with a windmilling relight. I don't think that an APU assisted inflight engine start was part of the certification process. However, if Bombardier has an approved APU inflight start procedure, then they are responsible for ensuring that it is a procedure that works.

There could be a settlement, but that may set a precedent for future lawsuits.

 

[sbn340mech]

Notwithstanding the viability of the lawsuit. That's the reason we courts. However, lawsuits didn't kill general aviation. General aviation manufactuers died in the US for the same reason GM and Ford are in trouble. A bad product and giving up too much market share to foriegn competitors. There's a reason Embraer has so much market share in the US now, mergers and Boeing sitting on there hands. Trial lawyers aren't the problem with Enron and "Kenny Boy". If we are not going to be allowed to sue, can we shoot the rotten so and so's?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't lawsuits what forced companies like Cessna and Piper to almost go out of business. I mean they don't have near the production or variation of aircraft types they did 30 years ago. Also a reason why many G/A planes appreciate in value

GM and Ford are mainly in trouble because of high costs, same as some legacy carriers. Huge pensions and medical benefits, highly paid employees. Asian automakers have none of this to worry about since they basically use slave labor. Kind of neat to know that we Americans will be our own demise eventually
Hope that didn't offend anyone, I'm not trying to fan the flames. Back to the original subject...I have read a few good articles on the incident and from what I can tell, those pilots broke so many rules and regs how could the famlies even have a chance. But then I remembered the McD's coffee thing. Oh well just another case of someone trying to get paid anywhich way they can. It's great to be an American!!!!!!!!

 

[Dangerkitty]

Don't have any documentation off hand, but it's probably available on the net somewhere if you know where to look. This was taught at both airlines that I've worked at, so I doubt it's incorrect. Besides, it's only common sense. Making out/off times is part of your official duties, so it wouldn't conflict with the reg anyway.

Well I guess American Airlines and Continental Express dont have any common sense then. Of couse at AA we had ACARS.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Our GOM (FAA Approved) says it's OK to make out/off calls below 10000 ft.

The FAA approved books at ACA/IDE also allowed for OOOI times to be called via #2 radio below 10000' when ACARS was inop/not installed.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

For those on this board that call themselves professional and stomp on the graves of two fellow aviators. As others have said, we have all done things in an a/c that we shouldn't have. Some things worse than others, I am sure these guys didn't get on that a/c with the intent not to go home later that night.
The only thing we as pilots can do is to learn from there errors and assure that they are not repeated. As many of you have stated that you have never heard of core lock much less of how to avoid it. Now, because of this accident, procedures have been modified and CRJ drivers are more than aware of how to avoid it.

I am not defending there actions, they made numerouse errors in judgment that night which cost them there lives. But to call them names and to go as low as stating they should have never been born does nothing for anyone.

Fly Safe...

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

AHHH Dude, we're gonna hit a house.

 

[FL420]

1. I think everyone has made a dumb mistake like that before.

I haven't. If the other guy puts it in the box, I check it. If I put it in, I check it and then either observe him check it or confirm he has checked it. If we get a last minute reroute taxiing out, I will ensure at least the first 100 miles of the route gets in the box before takeoff.

Nothing to get all worked up over.

I disagree. The stakes are too high in crowded airspace for someone to just wander off their route unexpectedly.

2. I don't especially care for making out/off calls so low, but it's not a violation of sterile cockpit. The FAA said many, many years ago that they are related to operational needs and are not a violation of the sterile cockpit rules. Since you don't know that, should I be afraid to get on your airplane? That would seem to be your attitude.

In 1981 the FAA enacted FAR 121.542 and FAR 135.100; JAR 1.085(d)(8) is similar:

FAR 121.542 / FAR 135.100--Flight Crew Member Duties
(a) No certificate holder shall require, nor may any flight crewmember perform, any duties during a critical phase of flight except those duties required for the safe operation of the aircraft. Duties such as company required calls made for such nonsafety related purposes as ordering galley supplies and confirming passenger connections, announcements made to passengers promoting the air carrier or pointing out sights of interest, and filling out company payroll and related records are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft. (I interpret this strictly while apparently regionals such as TSA, ACA/IDE and Air Wisconsin do not. They must have convinced their POI's that Out/Off/ETA calls are required for the safe operation of the aircraft. I most strongly disagree, especially when they are able to contact their stations and/or dispatch on VHF from any altitude within their route system. I personally don't make those calls while still in Indian Country aka, below FL180.)
(b) No flight crewmember may engage in, nor may any pilot in command permit, any activity during a critical phase of flight which could distract any flight crewmember from the performance of his or her duties or which could interfere in any way with the proper conduct of those duties. Activities such as eating meals, engaging in nonessential conversations within the cockpit and nonessential communications between the cabin and cockpit crews, and reading publications not related to the proper conduct of the flight are not required for the safe operation of the aircraft.
(c) For the purposes of this section, critical phases of flight includes all ground operations involving taxi, takeoff and landing, and all other flight operations conducted below 10,000 feet, except cruise flight. [Note: Taxi is defined as ``movement of an airplane under its own power on the surface of an airport.'']

3. This story just tells me that the A320 operator you are working for is pretty poor in it's new hire screening and Captain upgrade training.

I don't disagree but remember I said he was a direct entry captain. He has a famous relative who is very influential in a major professional sport. Whether that was relevant, I don't know.

Why did someone so poor get to be in the left seat of that A320?

He wasn't "poor." To the contrary. He just didn't have the advantage of military training in sweptwing jet aircraft and he only flew straightwing turboprops in the regionals. His lack of exposure to sweptwing jet operations before being hired as an A320 captain means he was inexperienced. He admitted never having being exposed, in the classroom or in the simulator, to more than a passing reference to high gross weight operations in a sweptwing jet aircraft operated at high altitudes. To me, that means he was poorly trained for the equipment and environment in which he was operating.

Do you work for JetBlue? .

No, but he does now.

 

[FL420]

Our GOM (FAA Approved) says it's OK to make out/off calls below 10000 ft.

I find that scary. There is absolutely no justifiable reason Out/Off/ETA calls need to be made when pilot workload is at its highest. There are way too many Cubs, gliders, parachutists, trikes, ultralights, LSA's, powered parachutes, etc. operating out there without transponders for the PNF to be heads down dialing in frequencies, doing calculations and reading numbers.

In some terminal areas, LGB and BED come to mind, the TCAS is absolutely saturated with targets on a nice day. Lots of very inexperienced and non-instrument rated private pilots are operating turbocharged(sometimes pressurized) singles VMC up to 17,500 feet. A few rogues even turn off their transponders and sneak up into the flight levels.

For all of the above reasons, I stay lit up and don't make unnecessary radio calls until above FL180(i.e.-out of Indian Country.) I think it's time for all regionals to re-evaluate their policies if they are requiring, or even allowing, Out/Off/ETA calls to be made below 10,000 feet. To not do so is a disservice to the flying public.

 

[canyonblue737]

Sure. Three incidents come to mind.

1. Pre 9/11 I was riding on an ERJ jumpseat from ORD to TUL. The three of us were chatting away in level cruise when ATC came over the speaker saying "Callsign XXXX, where in the hell are you going?" Seems someone neglected to check that the route in the box was the same route as in the clearance.

2. Sitting in on a large regional's groundschool I was astounded to hear the instructor tell the class that the PNF was to get on the radio and make the Out & Off company calls to dispatch after the A/C was cleaned up passing 2500 feet AFE. When he was questioned about the safety of going heads down in a busy terminal area like ORD and reminded that such a procedure was a violation of the sterile cockpit rule he responded: "It's okay, we have TCAS."

3. On one of my very first flights out of IOE as a newhire on the A320 I was flying with a young captain who had been hired a few years before as a Captain right out of the left seat of a large regional turboprop. The A320 was his first swept wing jet.

We had had some ground delays and had been in our seats for quite sometime before release. The weather was kinda crappy out of ORD. I noticed during climbout that he constantly fiddled with the Speed Knob on the MCP by slowing below the FMC calculated ECON climb speed trying to increase his rate-of-climb. He was trying to stay VMC by barely topping approaching cloud tops.

We were just leveling at FL390 and I had to pee like a racehorse so I went back to the lav. Everything looked normal when I left. When I came back a few minutes later I immediately noticed we were descending through about FL380. He was spinning knobs on the MCP and cussing up a storm. I asked him if ATC had given us lower and he said no. He said the autopilot was all screwed up.

One look at the speed tape told the story. If we had been in anything other than a FBW aircraft we would have probably stalled instead of mushing out of an altitude we couldn't maintain at our GW and TOGA power. I thank God for the Low Speed Protection features of Normal Law built into the A320. Fortunately he didn't argue when I told him to speed up and ask for lower. I got back into my seat as quickly as I could.

A subsequent discussion about the VN(sorry, don't remember how to do subscripts) diagram and high altitude swept wing aerodynamics revealed he had never been trained on the subject by any company he had worked for previously. He was a very good, relatively mature and conscientious pilot. He was just poorly trained for the equipment and environment in which he was operating.




I didn't say all regional pilots were immature, inexperienced or ill-trained. Nor did I say most of them were. I will say that I think too many are, both for my taste and for the good of the profession. I also reserve the right to take personal risks while not allowing my family to be exposed to those same risks.

Someone on this board has a signature something like this I think is apropos:

The truth only hurts when it should.

1. while that kind of mistake shouldn't happen it has happened to EVERY carrier to fly an FMS equiped aircraft. i bet it even has happened to most pilots at one time, even though it shouldn't. mistakes happen, that is in no way related to regional pilots.

2. numerous airlines have approved ops specs that allow sub 10,000 ft. out/off/inrange calls and it is not against the sterile cockpit rule. the carrier i now fly has made the choice (and a great one at that) to make all such calls above 10k in the interest of safety. in the past i have worked for carriers where you would make the out calls shortly after the climb check which was done at 1,000 ft.

3. saying it has something to do with him coming out of a turboprop to a swept wing jet has nothing to do with it. tons of pilots go from the left seat of a turboprop to the left seat of a jet, for example from a EMB-120 to an RJ. the fault lies with the training when that occurs, and if the major airline that hired that pilot didn't properly educate him then part of the blame lies there. everyone had to fly a jet for the first time sometime. to say it has something to do with lack of military jet training also is flawed because i see military guys from fighters come to heavy civy jets and have no idea of what to do with a 35 knot crosswind landing. i don't fault them, they just didn't do that before and they need to be trained, just the same as this guy should have been trained. that said after flying the 320 for years that pilot should know better one way or the other so I have to feel there is more to your story than just poor training... perhaps he was just a poor airman, every company has a few sadly.

 

[100LL... Again!]

For those on this board that call themselves professional and stomp on the graves of two fellow aviators.

That would be true if they really deserved the title of 'aviator'.

I would say that they did not.

Also, you talk about their 'errors'. Cali was an error. The J31 in TN was an error.

Error is a word I reserve for otherwise conscientious, competent aviators who make an honest mistake.

They were neither conscientous, competent, NOR aviators. "Imposter" is a word that comes to mind instead.

I also question whether there is much to learn from their 'mistakes'. None of the things that they did are really mistakes. They were gross abuses and violations of the trust that an airline puts in its professional pilots. A trust that is sometimes misplaced.

But, to pacify the feel-gooders around here, lets all take a mement and 'learn'.
Some do's and don'ts from 3701.

DO Read and understand your aircraft documentation and manuals.
DO understand the aerodyamics and operating environment of your aircraft.
DO admit your major life-threatening screwups right away instead of covering your butt.

DON'T change seats in violation of company policy/FARs and/or commoon sense.
DON'T play fighter pilot with an airplane that does not belong to you.
DON'T assume command of an aircraft when you are still capable of acting like a teenager.

Happy?

 

[Dennis Miller]

I didn't say all regional pilots were immature, inexperienced or ill-trained. Nor did I say most of them were. I will say that I think too many are, both for my taste and for the good of the profession. I also reserve the right to take personal risks while not allowing my family to be exposed to those same risks.

I salute you Lieutenant Rickenbacker. While there may be some defectively trained individuals at the Regional level, There are sure enough many of the upper crust military elite that can bend a tin can or two. A few such incidents of imprudent decision making are…………

Fighter jet hits gondola killing all 20 passengers

Marine Corps jet buzzing valleys in Northern Italy clipped an aerial cable at a ski resort in Cavalese, Italy. A gondola filled with skiers plunged about 360 feet to the ground, killing all 20 passengers.

Commerce Secretary Ron Brown Crash

"Proper training would have enabled the air crew to recognize they could not fly the Dubrovnik approach with the navigational equipment on the aircraft," the report said. "They should not have attempted to do so."

The pilots, running 15 minutes behind schedule, also rushed through the unfamiliar landing procedures, making several more mistakes.

After passing the first beacon, nearly 12 miles from the airport and 4 minutes before impact, the pilots set the wrong final course -- flying 9 degrees off and heading toward the mountains.

They also failed to get clearance from the airport tower and they were flying too fast, indicating they forgot to put down their flaps and landing gear right away.

Apache crash blamed on pilot error

The crash occurred the night of April 26 about 40 miles northwest of Tirana, Albania, where the crews of 24 Apaches are training to join NATO's attacks on Yugoslavia.

In that accident, the sources said, the pilot tried to land the heavily laden helicopter in air that was too thin.

The helicopter was fully loaded with fuel and weapons when it was attempting to land. Investigators believe it hit a pocket of light air and that caused the aircraft to hit the ground too hard.

The two-man crew was pulled to safety before the helicopter burst into flames.

Pentagon officials said the helicopter probably should have burned more fuel before attempting the landing maneuver.

Bad decisions are not restricted to the civilian side of aviation, just as there are examples of unfortunate judgment in the case of the RJ crew, the military has made dire decisions just as well, even if they received “better” training.

 

[73-Driver]

These guys F#&ked-up! Can't we let them R.I.P.?

 

[SWA/FO]

I agree with Dennis...

 

[El-Rushbo]

I agree with Dennis...

Big surprise there, Mr "Negative Military".

 

[ivauir]

Dennis I always enjoy your posts, but you have missed the mark here. This thread shouldn't become another civie vs mil thread. Let the dead rest.

 

[CA1900]

These guys F#&ked-up! Can't we let them R.I.P.?

I was content to do so, until their parents started digging for gold in their loved ones' names. They forced this crash back into the limelight, not us.

 

[Flyerjosh]

I was content to do so, until their parents started digging for gold in their loved ones' names. They forced this crash back into the limelight, not us.

Agreed.

 

[Dennis Miller]

Dennis I always enjoy your posts, but you have missed the mark here. This thread shouldn't become another civie vs mil thread. Let the dead rest.

I will not get into a C vs M either, just wanted to let the man know that training, be it in a civilian environment or military, will not make you a safer pilot, nor will it prevent accidents. You could have the best training in the world and still kill yourself and others, likewise you could get the worst training and retire at 60. I do agree with you also to let the dead rest, as well as this thread. It's getting as annoying as that Oliver kid on the Brady Bunch, until Sam the Butcher turned him into a pickle-loaf sandwich.

 

[FL420]

training, be it in a civilian environment or military, will not make you a safer pilot, nor will it prevent accidents.

YGBSM!

I've seen some really stupid statements on this board but this one beats all.

 

[canyonblue737]

just wanted to let the man know that training, be it in a civilian environment or military, will not make you a safer pilot, nor will it prevent accidents.

LOL! :laugh:

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

Training doesn't work? Tell that to a check airman.

 

[ultrarunner]

Three things strike me about this accident:

1. These two were too immature to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.
2. These two were too inexperienced to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.
3. These two were too poorly trained to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.

I think this situation is all too common at regional airlines and even though I fly on them when I have to and I certainly appreciate the ride when jumpseating, I am never comfortable until the door is opened at the gate.

420, I agree with you 100%. I do a fair amount of positive space airlining each year, and I ALWAYS book around getting on an RJ. It's much more common that the FO was a CFI the month before and the CPT was a CFI 12 months (if you're lucky) before that.

You're MUCH more likely to get a more experieced crew on a "mainline" carrier. And IMO, that's important when operation swept wing turbojet aircraft at high altitude.

Not that things aren't going to go wrong on the "big planes". Just a comfort level for me.

 

[Lawman]

420, I agree with you 100%. I do a fair amount of positive space airlining each year, and I ALWAYS book around getting on an RJ. It's much more common that the FO was a CFI the month before and the CPT was a CFI 12 months (if you're lucky) before that.

You're MUCH more likely to get a more experieced crew on a "mainline" carrier. And IMO, that's important when operation swept wing turbojet aircraft at high altitude.

Not that things aren't going to go wrong on the "big planes". Just a comfort level for me.

It has nothing to do with that. I agree that I don't like to get on an RJ and the crew looks like they just graduated high school but that is the norm at a lot carriers. CFI's are how they got to where they are. That said, I think I would rather have a CFI up there than some 200 hour wonder just out of Embrey Riddle.

 

[ultrarunner]

...CFI's are how they got to where they are. That said, I think I would rather have a CFI up there than some 200 hour wonder just out of Embrey Riddle.

Heck yeah! The 200 hr ER wonders are on those PFT 1900's in Florida. I won't get on them either!