Families of Pilots Killed File Lawsuit

[SWA/FO]

How old were these guys?

 

["GO AROUND"]

The NTSB has determined that the turbofan jet engines (General Electric CF34-3B1) were operating at 600F above maximum redline temperature (2200F) at 41,000ft, and that the high speed compressor blades melted, which then dripped onto the low speed compressor. After the flameout, the low speed compressor became welded to the rest of the engine. Intially, it was thought that a core lock had occurred in the engines, however this more serious condition in fact occurred.

Rhodes, 31, and Cesarz, 23.

The flight data recorder shows that soon after the crew ignored the fourth stall warning, the pitch was at 30 degrees nose up and 75 KIAS. This would blank any remaining airflow to the engines by the wings causing flameout.

The stall protection system is not a recovery system. The pilots never recovered and the system won't either in that situation. They should have held the red button and pushed the nose over and they didn't.

 

[Freight Dog]

I got this e-mail over the holidays....

How appropriate.... f**king lawyers!

-----

To My Democrat Friends:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2006, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. And without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishes. By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher."

To My Republican Friends:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

 

[Palomino]

Popular Mechanics article

good article from Popular Mechanics last month -

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/aviation/2156137.html?page=1&c=y

last paragraph from the article:

Although Flight 3701 ended tragically, it illustrates how many safety features protect commercial passengers. The crew misused the auto-pilot, took the plane outside its envelope and repeatedly overrode the safety system. As one pilot told PM: "It's an object lesson in how many things you have to get wrong in order to crash your plane."

says it all for me. we are professional pilots and we should ALWAYS respect the physics involved in the safe operation of our aircraft.

 

[Uppercrust]

It probably wasn't their training though.

 

[CKJET]

At 10,000 they were switching seats? Where can you get a copy of the CVR?

 

[Flyerjosh]

At 10,000 they were switching seats? Where can you get a copy of the CVR?

Yes, the crew switched seats shortly after TO, and then again on the descent after they attempted to restart the engines.



Here's the NTSB public docket of the last NTSB hearing held on the accident:

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...ts/default.htm

Some of the recommended reading from these documents would be the following:

CVR Transcript:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...VR_Factual.pdf

FDR Factual Report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/316970.pdf

GE Report on Engine Core Lock:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/324090.pdf

Human Performance Report/Crew Histories:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/322805.pdf

 

[ultrarunner]

Just unbelievable. They caused the crash. The plane warned them with the stick-shaker, and tried to force corrective action with the stick-pusher, which they overrode. This is Bombardier's error how? Are we going to have to electrify the control yoke to keep hands off of it during a stick-push?

1900, chill out. This is SOP in a wrongfull death lawsuit. Remember, this is a civil lawsuit. Which means it's all about the MONEY...

"...SHOW ME THE MONEY..." remember that?

Ok, so, you think the estates of those two stupid pukes in the front of their glider has any money?????

NOPE.

They are just going after money. Simple as that. And in civil litigation, the burden of proof is shifted.

GE, Bombardier, the airline...they have money...

The estates of the "dudes" have none. Shocker isn't it?

 

[skykid]

And who speaks for the pilots?

I agree that the lawyers don't care about anything but a percentage of the potential payout, but who speaks for the pilots? Nobody. If you believe everything you hear (even from the NTSB) you are a fool. Nobody speaks for the pilots.

 

[A350]

ALPA should leave no stone unturned.....but they need to call a spade a spade. These guys did not act like the sharp end of the sword.

As I said in an earlier post....at the speeds they were going, they should give GE an engineering award that the engines were running at all before the stall.
The pullup to 30 degrees and 75 kias sealed their fate. Once the engine stopped turning with the thermal shock and and lack of airflow, the end result was assured.

A350

 

[VAPOR]

pilots were negligent, families deserve nothing

And who speaks for the pilots?

I agree that the lawyers don't care about anything but a percentage of the potential payout, but who speaks for the pilots? Nobody. If you believe everything you hear (even from the NTSB) you are a fool. Nobody speaks for the pilots.

Who speaks for the pilots? The pilots speak for themselves on the CVR and their deliberate negligence is confirmed on the data recorder. Read the many articles posted here by others about how the morons promoted themselves to test pilots without permission and with others' property.

Why should other responsible pilots and the flying public pay these pilots' families for this illegal party? These frivilous lawsuits drive up insurance and ticket prices, decrease pilot wages, make us all look bad, not to mention it is going to cost millions more in research on how to further idiot-proof the airplanes that we 'fly', putting more aircraft control with a microprocessor and less into our hands.

On the lowest level this boils down to a basic social doctrine, which is to take responsibility for your actions. Or if you prefer, not to profit from others' irresponsibility. The world is suffering under this behavior and its support in every facet of society.

 

[FN FAL]

1900, chill out. This is SOP in a wrongfull death lawsuit. Remember, this is a civil lawsuit. Which means it's all about the MONEY...

Criminal courts are the venue with which society seeks justice. Victims are not the focus, in regards to the criminal court process. That's why criminal court cases are titled "United States v. Johnson" or "The State of Montana v. Smith".

Civil courts are where the individual seeks justice. That is why you see those cases titled as "Baker v. Cooke".

The only reasonable way to make an individual whole again after they suffer a loss, is a monetary award after a trial process. Like it or not, if you run over the bread winner of a family and it is your fault, you will probably have to cough up the monetary equivelent of that person's net worth in the form of legal tender. There is no option available for you to become the "replacement" father for that family by marrying the widow and agreeing to become the new dad.

I don't know if this lawsuit will have any traction in civil court, but it is unfair to catagorize the civil justice system as being "it's all about the MONEY!"

No, it's all about civil justice for the individual.

Without a venue for the individual to seek civil justice, society would be fraught with individuals seeking justice in less civilized forms.

 

[POWDERFINGER]

You spineless scumbags aren't worthy of touching a Piper Cub! So-called pilots pissing on the graves of the dead!

You dare to sit in judgement of dead pilots and their families, as though you represent the manufacturers. Why don't you donate your wages and life insurance to the manufacturer's legal defense fund. Then, when you die in a wreck, they can fend off lawsuits from your surviving family members.

 

[h25b]

You spineless scumbags aren't worthy of touching a Piper Cub! So-called pilots pissing on the graves of the dead!

You dare to sit in judgement of dead pilots and their families, as though you represent the manufacturers. Why don't you donate your wages and life insurance to the manufacturer's legal defense fund. Then, when you die in a wreck, they can fend off lawsuits from your surviving family members.

Exactly which part of the CVR would you like to be representative of your professionalism ??? Defending these guys is like justifying drunk driving. How should Bombardier or GE feel any guilt for the accident. If you're a professional pilot you should be rooting against this family in the litigation process.

Like I said, it was a suicide mission. Would you be saying the same thing if some poor ba$tard sitting in his lazyboy on the ground had been killed ? That's about the only positive thing that can be said for the accident.

By the way, I'm a witty scumbag... Not a spineless one...

 

[CKJET]

You spineless scumbags aren't worthy of touching a Piper Cub! So-called pilots pissing on the graves of the dead!

You dare to sit in judgement of dead pilots and their families, as though you represent the manufacturers. Why don't you donate your wages and life insurance to the manufacturer's legal defense fund. Then, when you die in a wreck, they can fend off lawsuits from your surviving family members.

Powderfinger, relax. I was skeptical at first but after reading that CVR, there is no excuse, as the post before states this lawsuit will help to lower our wages drive up ticket prices etc... Yes it is terrible what happened to those two guys and they brought it upon themselves, no the company who made the plane should pay for it? Does not sound very fair to me.

 

[CKJET]

In some ways this is close to the TWA 727 years and years ago that went way way up and the Capt. (Allegedly put the slats to 2 but pulled the circut breaker for the flaps?) It was before my time but I will try to google it, I can almost remember the Capt.s name I belive he was cleared of any wrong doing and later went back to TWA. I also think he erased the CVR after landing, anybody remember more details, I used to fly the 727 and Captains have told me this story but it has been a while and I can't remember all the details.

 

[POWDERFINGER]

If you're a professional pilot you should be rooting against this family in the litigation process.

Rooting against this family does nothing at all to protect or enhance the profession. The best thing a professional pilot can do is just stay out of the process and let the litigants argue in court (or settle). Siding with the manufacturers or operators against the pilots is cannibalism, IMHO.
The manufacturer will never, ever, accept responsibility when it can be placed on the pilots. Why side with someone who would not hesitate to protect themselves at your expense??



There should be better screening and training, not ridiculing the dead after the fact. I agree that the crew handled the situation poorly, but no one has the right to say they would have done better had they been there instead. What's next? Do we fault the Columbia crew for getting out of bed on launch day? Let the litigants argue it out, and see what facts they can dig up...


BTW, the won't be any gain for pilots if the families lose.

 

[h25b]

Rooting against this family does nothing at all to protect or enhance the profession. The best thing a professional pilot can do is just stay out of the process and let the litigants argue in court (or settle). Siding with the manufacturers or operators against the pilots is cannibalism, IMHO.
The manufacturer will never, ever, accept responsibility when it can be placed on the pilots. Why side with someone who would not hesitate to protect themselves at your expense??



There should be better screening and training, not ridiculing the dead after the fact. I agree that the crew handled the situation poorly, but no one has the right to say they would have done better had they been there instead. What's next? Do we fault the Columbia crew for getting out of bed on launch day? Let the litigants argue it out, and see what facts they can dig up...


BTW, the won't be any gain for pilots if the families lose.

You're bringing the Columbia crew in to this discussion ??? YGTBSM !!!

 

[SWA/FO]

but no one has the right to say they would have done better had they been there instead

I know 100%, that I will not make myself a test pilot. What boeing says the a/c will do is fine with me. I would have never put myself into that position.

 

[81Horse]

... I can almost remember the Capt.s name ...

One of aviation's many "Hoot" Gibsons.

 

[SWA/FO]

We have our own Hoot at SWA.....

 

[Palomino]

Rooting against this family does nothing at all to protect or enhance the profession. The best thing a professional pilot can do is just stay out of the process and let the litigants argue in court (or settle). Siding with the manufacturers or operators against the pilots is cannibalism, IMHO.
The manufacturer will never, ever, accept responsibility when it can be placed on the pilots. Why side with someone who would not hesitate to protect themselves at your expense??



There should be better screening and training, not ridiculing the dead after the fact. I agree that the crew handled the situation poorly, but no one has the right to say they would have done better had they been there instead. What's next? Do we fault the Columbia crew for getting out of bed on launch day? Let the litigants argue it out, and see what facts they can dig up...


BTW, the won't be any gain for pilots if the families lose.

i'm not rooting against anyone's family. however, i believe these guys should have thought about their families more before putting them in this horrible position.

they were grossly irresponsible and unprofessional. that can't be argued. as pilots, most of us believe that 'fate is the hunter'. these guys not only tempted fate...they dared it.

 

[FN FAL]

I think that they banned the use of the nickname "hoot" in a 1974 amendment to the Omnibus Budget Act of 1954, but there's a chance that Plessy v. Ferguson might overturn it.

 

[FL420]

Three things strike me about this accident:

1. These two were too immature to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.
2. These two were too inexperienced to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.
3. These two were too poorly trained to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.

I think this situation is all too common at regional airlines and even though I fly on them when I have to and I certainly appreciate the ride when jumpseating, I am never comfortable until the door is opened at the gate.

 

[POWDERFINGER]

You're bringing the Columbia crew in to this discussion ??? YGTBSM !!!

It's open season...


Actually, I don't have time for more of this crap. We'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe I'll find out who is representing the families and send them a few greenbacks to help push the process along. It's more effective than trying to change opinions of incorrigible people.

 

[Dangerkitty]

It's open season...


Actually, I don't have time for more of this crap. We'll have to agree to disagree. Maybe I'll find out who is representing the families and send them a few greenbacks to help push the process along. It's more effective than trying to change opinions of incorrigible people.

Have you even read te CVR?

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

It's been a while since I read the transcript but to give these two clowns anything is a farce. It's bad enough they had to kill themselves but they could have killed many innocent individuals on the ground, thank God they didn't. The F.O. said somthing like, "Ah dude, we're gonna hit a house". Fine professionals these two were.

 

["GO AROUND"]

Three things strike me about this accident:

1. These two were too immature to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.
2. These two were too inexperienced to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.
3. These two were too poorly trained to be flying a swept wing jet at high altitude.

I think this situation is all too common at regional airlines and even though I fly on them when I have to and I certainly appreciate the ride when jumpseating, I am never comfortable until the door is opened at the gate.

You're really gonna open that can of worms? Do you wanna base this on any facts other than your opinion? There are just as many immature, inexperienced and poorly trained pilots at the majors. What, you wanna compare accident to accident?

This is not all to common at the regionals. It's all too common among unprofessional, stupid pilots no matter where or what they were flying.

Next time I get you and your family to your destination safely, come up and hit me in the face and then thank me for the ride. Cause that's just what you did to me and every regional pilot that does there job the same way you say you do by saying that.

These two should not have been flying any airplane anywhere. If they had been flying a 757/767 for a major what would your comment have been then? And don't give me the crap that it wouldn't have happened with a major crew cause it could have easily have been.

So spare me your friggin eliteist attitude.

 

[Dennis Miller]

The F.O. said somthing like, "Ah dude, we're gonna hit a house". Fine professionals these two were.

Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure?

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

More like Dumb and Dumber try aviation as a career.