Families of Pilots Killed File Lawsuit

[100LL... Again!]

GE should countersue those greedy creeps right out of their homes and into a crappy apartment.

What opportunistic POS's. Any sympathy I had for the families is certainly gone now.

I hope that the parties don't settle. That CVR should be played in full at the trial. Right up to the comment about hitting houses, DUDE.

 

[TWA Dude]

The engines were unable to start because these guys did not shove the nose over sufficiently to get enough airflow.

I know that their windmilling start attempt wasn't done correctly but didn't they try to do an APU start as well? I know nothing of the CRJ in-flight start procedure but aren't the investigators trying to figure out why it was unsuccessful?

 

[100LL... Again!]

Dude how the hell did you turn this into partisan? I mean thats fairly out there. All kinds of people want money they don't have to earn.

Regarding individuals who sue, yes.

BUT, the American Trial Lawyers Association has their butt-boys in the Dem party fighting any tort reform bill that conservatives bring up.

Conservatives are often pilloried for being pro-big-business, but Dems are WAY, WAY too pro-big-law-firms.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Maybe through the process of a trial, the families will find out (with a little help from the defense attornies) what incompetent fools their loved ones were. Personally, I wouldn't want to smear their names all over again, but they're asking for it. Hope they get a good dose of it, too.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I have to disagree that these two guys were morons.....that is a little harsh.

They were ignorant that what they were doing was outside the envelope......

The only people to blame for that is Pinnacle's training department curriculum, and we all know who approved that. Good luck getting $$$ out of Uncle Sam.

Let us not forget that they paid for their ignorance with their lives. However, this may end up saving lives in the future....therefore they didn't die for nothing.

A350

Hey,
Switching seats, 410 club, ect. need more be said, was that professional? Were they blazer or leather coat guys? I am amazed, nay shocked that anyone who read the NTSB transcript, would think anything except that these "pilots" killed themselves!
PBR

 

[100LL... Again!]

The only people to blame for that is Pinnacle's training department curriculum, and we all know who approved that. Good luck getting $$$ out of Uncle Sam.

Correction - Pinnacle's screening process. And why must blame always be assigned to somebody else?

Why can't we call a spade a spade and a fool a fool?

In the end, we still have the tragedy. What 10 minutes of extra ground school could have taught these guys.

Not trying to bust your chops, 350, because you have made some very nice and polite posts, but I really don't think that this was a case of "For want of a nail...".

There was massive deficiency in judgement, personal responsibility, airmanship, honesty (hiding the dual flameout until 10K), maturity, and probably even intelligence.

Not to keep pounding the 'dude' drum again but I really don't think there is much intellectual horspepower present when that type of surfer-speak is used to the point where everyone who hears it is embarrassed.

 

[D'Angelo]

oooops

 

[Puck Mugger]

Notwithstanding the viability of the lawsuit. That's the reason we courts. However, lawsuits didn't kill general aviation. General aviation manufactuers died in the US for the same reason GM and Ford are in trouble. A bad product and giving up too much market share to foriegn competitors. There's a reason Embraer has so much market share in the US now, mergers and Boeing sitting on there hands. Trial lawyers aren't the problem with Enron and "Kenny Boy". If we are not going to be allowed to sue, can we shoot the rotten so and so's?

When did Boeing and embraer get into general aviation.

Further I would like to hear you expound on your theory that Beech and Cessna and Piper and Mooney and Grumman and etc etc etc built bad products and gave up market share to foreign competition.

Carry on.

 

[Puck Mugger]

Brought over fom the OTHER thread

Wrongful death???

I guess they are ignoring the fact that operating the a/c and engines outside of certification limitations is what led to the "heat damage" that prevented the engines from restarting.

Pathetic that the families would view their loved ones irresponsible screw-up as a winning lottery ticket.

Hopefully if it ever gets to a jury they will see the families for the gold-digging grave-dancers they are.

Another sad chapter to an already sad story.

 

[Puck Mugger]

I have to disagree that these two guys were morons.....that is a little harsh.

They were ignorant that what they were doing was outside the envelope......

The only people to blame for that is Pinnacle's training department curriculum, and we all know who approved that. Good luck getting $$$ out of Uncle Sam.

Let us not forget that they paid for their ignorance with their lives. However, this may end up saving lives in the future....therefore they didn't die for nothing.

A350

Cause and effect:

Ignorant to the dangers of their immature behavior = Moron.

A bit pejorative perhaps, but true nonetheless.

 

[VAPOR]

Correction - Pinnacle's screening process. And why must blame always be assigned to somebody else?

Why can't we call a spade a spade and a fool a fool?



Not trying to bust your chops, 350, because you have made some very nice and polite posts, but I really don't think that this was a case of "For want of a nail...".

There was massive deficiency in judgement, personal responsibility, airmanship, honesty (hiding the dual flameout until 10K), maturity, and probably even intelligence.

Not to keep pounding the 'dude' drum again but I really don't think there is much intellectual horspepower present when that type of surfer-speak is used to the point where everyone who hears it is embarrassed.

WELL SAID! Notwithstanding our crummy legal system this case boils down to personal and moral responsibility. This crap reminds me of that stupid bitc_ that went to McDonald's and sued after she spilled "hot coffee" all over her labia. What comes around goes around, and justice will have its day.

 

[NYCPilot]

This reminds me of another frivolous lawsuit filed against Starbucks.

Several years ago, a married couple went inside of Starbucks to purchase some expensive coffee drinks. While the husbands wife was waiting online, the man went to the bathroom to use the toilet. As it happened to be, the man needed to relieve himself on the toilet bowl. Now as most of you have noticed, toilet seats in most restaurants and public places use a "split-seat" variety. This as you know prevents the common male "dip" from contaminating the seat. After this fine gentleman finished emptying out his bowels, he reached over to wipe his behind with some toilet paper. Unfortunately for this particular guy the toilet paper dispenser was located in an inconvenient positon on the wall. The poor position he claimed, required a very unnatural contortion of his body and during this movement his prized johnson got caught, wedged and twisted between the opening of the split seat. Now our friend claims to have lost his ability to develop an erection and his love life and evrythign else suffers. All because Starbusk allowed him to use their sub par rest facilities.

Anyway, I think SB's settled handsomely with this guy.

 

[Flyerjosh]

The lawsuits, filed in Broward County, Fla., Tuesday by the South Carolina law firm Motley Rice LLC, allege that heat damage in the engine, caused by a faulty oil pump, were among the problems making it impossible for the pilots to restart the engines.

Actually I would say it had something to do with stalling out at FL410, with the thrust levers pushed all the way forward... a faulty oil pump doesn't lead to 1200 degrees ITT.
Not to mention all the various regs broken... Switching seats, leaving the cockpit without other guy on O2, taking the plane outside of the performance envelope, and not following proper restart procedures to name a few...

 

[SeaLord]

The crew and specifically the captain made terrible and egregious errors which cost two people their lives. That being said, for the living to insult and criticize the deceased is in poor taste.

 

[h25b]

I have to disagree that these two guys were morons.....that is a little harsh.

No it's not. Tough to hear for some I'm sure, but it's the truth. I've spoken to some insiders at Bomdardier about this one and they all say these two were on a suicide mission the minute they left the ground.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I understand what the families are doing here,

Trying to get rich off of a tragedy?

Typical American mentality.....sad

 

[flagshipper]

I have told my wife that if I die in a crash and it is my fault I dont care how many millions the lawyers promise you it is wrong. Makes me sick to my stomach and I lose all sympathy for the families

 

[FCPhotography]

"GE should sue the parents for giving birth to these two morons."


They should never have been in that cockpit to begin with. I don't think it is their fault. Pinnacle looks for the youngest, cheapest, most "shiny jet syndrome" whipper snappers out there.

We just hired 60 guys with less than 600 hours. They will be (at the old pace) CA's within 2-3 years. Then when your new FO has 400 hours, well.............

They never even saw it coming. The angle of attack line 1.27 above stall speed (I think) was floating around about 1 inch above there indicated speed on the speed tape. The thought of seeing that line up there makes me sick. In the transcipt they were commenting on how high it was and how they never saw it up there. Supposedly our training department has fixed the problems. We will see.

 

[SWA/FO]

I just read the CVR, I find the whole event very sad. At least they didn't kill anybody on the ground.

 

[Dodge]

Trying to get rich off of a tragedy?

Typical American mentality.....sad

So true. I have never heard of anything like this in Europe.

It really is too bad. I too hope that GE, Bombardier, etc. ...don't settle out of court for a dime. Let them have their day and prove to everyone what we all know in airline world. That being said, NW will toss them some money (hey, I thought they were broke as hell!!!!) just to not have their name drug through the mud by allowing Pinnacle to hire and train such professionals.

 

[AviatorTx]

While I find it very sad that people died... It proves that Darwin was right.

Perhaps the families of Dumb and Dumber should be counter sued for having their kin destroy a perfectly good plane. (if you can call the crj that)

 

[Captain Overs]

They might as well sue Charles Darwin's estate as well. He's the one that came up with Natural Selection, and that's what actually killed these guys.

That is the best fricking line and observation on this board since it's inception!

 

[Tank Commander]

How many miles could they glide from 410 at best glide ?

3 mlies for every 1000 feet
3x41= 123 miles best glide(aprox)

 

[Flyerjosh]

I posted this in the other thread on this topic, but feel it's worthy of reposting here if for no other reason so that people can educate themselves on what actually happened:


Okay, here's my two cents (as both a former CRJ FO & CA, and having duplicated this in a CRJ Sim).

First, here are some things to consider:

1. The crew exceeded published limitations for the aircraft. They climbed at a weight/temperature that exceed the certifications of the aircraft. In addition, FDR data shows that the departure from the originating airport included pitch angles as high as 22 degrees nose up, and also induced stick shaker warnings.

2. The crew violated set company policies and common sense by SWITCHING SEATS after departure.

3. The crew violated FARs when one crewmember (the CA) left the cockpit at FL410 and the FO didn't put on O2.

4. The crew failed to recognize the continual negative trend of airspeed after the plan leveled off. Once they did recognize it, they failed to take immediate corrective action. They even laughed about how the airplane couldn't stay up at altitude

5. Because of the failure to remain within certificated operating envelopes, when the aircraft did stall, it did so in a manner that caused irrecoverable engine damage in the right (#2) engine. (ITT spiked at the top of the FDR recording limits at 1200 degrees C. For those of you unfamiliar with the CRJ, 928 ITT is the maximum ITT in the published limitations, 874 is max continuous operation)

6. The crew was so overwhelmed after the failure, it took them almost a full minute before they even silenced the master warning messages.

7. The crew failed to notify ATC in a timely manner that they had experienced a dual engine failure.

8. At 2200:38, the CA (while reading the QRH) instructs the FO (FP) to pitch for 300 knots to attempt a windmilling restart. At this point, the aircraft was descending through 27,000 feet. The top of the windmilling airstart envelope is 21,000'.

The windmilling restart requires a MINIMUM of 300 KIAS at or below FL210. The crew never pitched significantly enough to reach this speed (they made it only to approximately 250 KIAS).

As a result of not reaching the required airspeed, N2 rotation was never achieved, and the engine start/relight sequence was aborted.

9. At 2203:15 on the CVR, the captain misrepresented to ATC that they had only lost one engine at altitude, and were going to "descend down now to start our other engine."

10. There is the issue of engine core lock for the restart of the number 1 engine at 13000'. However, it is not unreasonable to expect engine damage following such violent maneuvers outside of normal operating limits. GE/Bombardier have shown in flight test that an engine that experiences either a flameout or intentional shutdown within the operating envelope will restart with APU bleed air rotation.

It's a sh*tty deal. Every accident is. However this was a 100% preventable accident. Even if the engines had never been relit. If the crew had considered the ramifications of a dual engine failure earlier on (and with significant altitude), there is no question in my mind that they could have found an airport to set down on that was within range. It might not have been pretty and might have resulted in an overrun, but it would have most likely been survivable.

This lawsuit is nothing more than a frivolous attempt by the families to gain some sort of monetary settlement, and in their mind clear the records of their deceased family members.

Instead it only serves to dig up the incident once again, put the spot light on two pilots that acted very unprofessionally and recklessly, and contribute to the growing legal burden that this country faces due to unjustifiable torts.

~Josh

------------------------------------
For those of you who are interested, here are some links for you to conduct your own research on this accident:

NTSB public docket of the last NTSB hearing held on the accident:

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...ts/default.htm

Some of the recommended reading from these documents would be the following:

CVR Transcript:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...VR_Factual.pdf

FDR Factual Report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/316970.pdf

GE Report on Engine Core Lock:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/324090.pdf

Human Performance Report/Crew Histories:
http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinn...its/322805.pdf

 

[climbhappy]

sometimes grief turns to anger, anger tor rage. no doubt a lawyer smells the blood and wants a pound of flesh. Or maybe mom has always wanted a second home in Florida. They don't care how they get there, but they fail to realize junior isn't coming back. and that junior treated a 25 million jet like a 68 camaro on a pretty spring day. this kind of crap usuaslly only happens to teenagers that drink and drive. (not suggesting they did, only the degree of carelessness with which they acted usually induced by alcohol and extreme euphoria.)

 

[geojet707]

Even if the pilots bear responsibility for getting into the stall condition what actually killed them was the inability of the engines to restart. I think GE is gonna end up paying for that.

With all due respect to the crew, they did not have the correct speed to attempt a re-start as per the air start table for the CRJ.

 

[HawkI]

Not to defend the crews action, .......but prior to this accident I know I wouldn't have known the proper relight airspeed and altitude envelope in the heat of the moment. (like someone else said, this is what killed them)

I now feel confident that I could restart the engines (at night, emergency power, new FO, scared $hitless). So thanks guys, I have learned a lot because of your untimely deaths. So stop dogging the crew!

 

[scoreboard]

3 mlies for every 1000 feet
3x41= 123 miles best glide(aprox)

Your signature says Medina Ridge like you know where that is, who were you with?

 

[PCL_128]

Not to defend the crews action, .......but prior to this accident I know I wouldn't have known the proper relight airspeed and altitude envelope in the heat of the moment. (like someone else said, this is what killed them)

You don't need to know the relight envelope from memory. All you need to know is the memory item which requires a minimum speed (then called a "target speed") of 240kias or .70M depending on altitude. The QRH will take you through the rest of the procedure and give you the relight envelope that is required. The 240/.70M is required to keep the core turning so that it doesn't lock up. If you let the speed drop too far right after the dual failure, then the cores can seize (core lock).

In this case, the #2 engine received so much heat damage that it was incapable of restarting again. The #1 engine didn't restart for still-unknown reasons. Despite what previous posters have said, the bleeds were configured properly for the starter-assisted relight procedure. The start valve did open, but the core didn't turn. This would seem to point to a core lock, but GE claims there were no signs of core lock on the engine. The N2 showed no signs of rotation at any point during the descent until just moments before impact when a slight increase in N2 and oil pressure was observed on the FDR data. Of course, if the engines didn't "unlock" until that point, then it was far too late to initiate a start.

The crew was certainly acting irresponsibly in this case from the start of the flight all the way till the fatal conclusion, but there are other problems also. Laying sole blame on the crew isn't a good idea. If we do that, then answers to other important questions won't be found. Pinnacle's woefully inept training department must be taken to task, GE should answer for why the engine would not turn when proper starter-assisted relight procedures were followed, and the FAA should answer for why they have such lenient certification requirements for relights. ALPA is seeing to it that these things are covered, and we should all be happy about that.

Those of you that think ALPA should just blame the crew like everyone else aren't thinking clearly. We need to have some entity that will address all of the issues and not just the big one. The crew was certainly the major problem in this case, but not the only one.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

we all know the facts, these guys were complete idiots, jackoffs supreme...and they paid the ultimate price for stupididty. All that we can say is they were fortunate nobody was onboard. This was no accident it was a suicide mission.

I dont see the manufacturer getting nailed much, reality is the general public is sick of relatives of morons trying to get trailer park rich by lawsuits. If they hadnt COMPLETLY blown standards procedures and common sense out of the water they might have a chance. even a non aviation jury will see this.

I just dont see a placard saying "Warning: dont be a Pinnacle jackass" coming to the cockpit anytime soon.

However, I do think the airlines will pay (with what $$ I ask?) for giving these fools the keys in the first place. Says wonders for regionals hiring/training programs and is the reason myself, nor my family would ever fly on Pinnacle Airlines. How could these two have been hired, trained, and set loose on the line? I would award someone the entire Pinnacle airlines bank account for thier gross negligence. Why? It wont take much to appaul a jury into imagining thier loved ones in the hands of these dip$hits.

No other pilot should defend these fools, they did a whole lot to smack your industry and label you as fly for free children, and they are about to cost you millions more....