Failed check during UPT: put it on app?

[GVFlyer]

Re: Re: Don't report it.

So by that rationale if you went the civilian route and failed your private you should not report it because you were not a rated pilot and not exercising any FAA priviledges?

Obviously, you are not a military pilot. I have over 5500 hours of military IP time, was an evaluator, and have been involved in the pilot selection process in the civil sector, so I consider myself to be qualified to speak to this issue. The check he failed was not a qualification producing evaluation as a civil Private Pilot Flight Examination would have been. It was a progress or phase check and considered to be a part of training - nothing more.







.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree you should disclose this and am amazed by the responses to the contrary.

As long as good moral character is required to hold the ATP certificate you have an obligation to be honest.

I agree that it is not the "kiss of death" or anything to be greatly concerned about. If anything, it allows you to deflect the question about a "learning experience" or "tell us when you made a mistake and how you handled it." By talking about a relatively minor checkride bust in a candid and humble way it allows you to disavow perfection, and talk about what you did to achieve a successful result.

GV Flyer's responses really bother me. As a civillian pilot, and someone who interviews for civillian pilot openings from time to time, I take a very dim view of the "it happened in the military outside the regulatory authority of the FAA" excuse. A few months ago I was about mowed through by a T-34C doing acro in IMC between PNS and MOB. Last year a C172 was whacked by a F-16 that blew through a clearance limit and our airline has had several close calls with T-38's. If I am not mistaken we have hired and subsequently fired military pilots who failed to report events that would have been considered incident, or accidents, under the FAR's. The intent of the question is to reveal busted PC's. If they only wanted to know about civillian checkrides, they would have worded the question differently.

~~~^~~~

 

[AlbieF15]

For what's its worth, I put "yes" for a busted UPT check...but it wasn't the Form 8 I check RShebib mentioned, it was an earlier phase check.

I managed to get hired at FDX and JetBlue, my only interviews. I never sweated them "discovering" the bust, as I disclosed it along with a statement on the app like "although not an official checkride, in 1988 I did bust a T-38 contact phase check. I went on to complete the phase check, graduated from UPT and was selected for the fighter track. Since that date I have never failed a checkride."

In my opinion, I used a negative (a bust) to highlight a positive (picked for fighter track...back "in the day" of FAR selections) and no subsequent problems. I also hopefully added to my credibility by proving I was honest and upfront about any past issues.

I have personally helped pilots get hired at FDX and JetBlue that were terminated by employers, arrested and jailed (and not a DUI), as well as some other issues. Maybe I'm naive, but I really think employers care more about who you are now that mistakes you made 10+ years ago.

Its a tough call--but my advice is always to pony up with the truth.

Fly safe.

 

[Falconjet]

Definitely tell the story

I think that you should definitely consider that a busted checkride and note it in the apps. A brief explanation and the learning experience you received would also make excellent interview answer material. The integrity issue by far outwieghs any concerns they might have over a busted progress check back in flight training. It seems they almost prefer that you have had some kind of bust that you learned from in your past. I doubt it will hurt your chances at all, whereas omitting a potential bomb could be devastating later on. Not worth it in my book. Good luck.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

I agree with Falconjet, Albie and the others who recommend that you should disclose the busted UPT check ride.

The question did not ask, "Did you ever fail a Form 8 checkride?" It asked, "Did you ever fail a checkride?"

That being said, a UPT progress check is a checkride, albeit perhaps not as important as any subsequent Form 8 checks.

As many in this thread have written, admit to having busted the check. Then, explain that there is no record of the bust due to the fact that you were not a rated pilot at the time, and the Air Force keeps no records of these checks.

Handling it in this way will do two things. First, it makes you look very honest. Second, it gives you a chance to use it as an important learning experience.

I have two busted UPT checkrides in my history (but none since), and have been hired at each of the airlines with which I have interviewed -- US Airways, Southwest, and JetBlue.

Just list it on your app, briefly explain it, then don't sweat it. It will probably never come up in an interview anyway.

Good luck.

 

[RedC5Guy]

Albie,

Good post! No one is perfect. Be it a ticket, check-ride, a "D" in high-school Physics (yep, that would be me), etc. we have ALL made a mistake somewhere, sometime. If the airline you desire to work for won't even interview you based on the fact that you made a mistake then I say that's a shame. Most people learn from the mistakes of themselves or others. The "learning curve of life"!

I don't know if anyone can say with any certainty that a busted check is a "kiss-of-death" or not. I guess it depends, in large part, on the particular situation and the culture of the airline to which you are applying. I think that I would sleep better at night knowing that I put everything on the app and that I won't get yanked from class or probation to explain an "event".

Red

 

[tkr-toad]

How about failing my ATP check?

I, like some others here, failed some progress checks in UPT. Then years of Form 8 checks with no problems. Well, long story short, I had the misfortune of busting my ATP check due to what I consider understandable circumstances. I passed the recheck with flying colors and I learned from it and I persevered and all that. BUT, just for my info, even with the most reasoned explanation, will this bite me in the hiney for getting an interview (like I said, once in the interview room I can mitigate it and hopefully proceed)?

 

[AlbieF15]

Another client of mine, a P3 NATOPs IP, busted his ATP checkride ORAL. He was taking it in, guess what...a P3 with an FAA old guy who had flown the electra.

Now...he's embarassed..but how does he handle it? We discussed some options.

Instead of saying "the 75 year old examiner had a chip on his shoulder, hated young military guys as being "spoiled", and had somthing to prove"...which was how he (and some other guys) truely felt, I recommended he say..

"Well...I thought I KNEW the P3 inside and out. Heck, I TAUGHT people in the plane and GAVE ORALs myself. But it quickly became apparent that as much as I knew, this guy knew a heck of a lot more. I was embarassed and humiliated when I went back to my squadron and reported to my bros my situation, but even more than that I was MAD! So I took what the FSDO guy said, dug into some Lockeed (vice just Navy) publications, researched like crazy, and then then went back the following Saturday and ACED my oral and my checkride. Other than that expereince, I've never busted a checkride. What I learned from the expereince was that no matter how sharp you think you are, there is always room for more knowledge and experience. I actually passed on a lot of what I learned from that old electra pilot back to my Navy bros..."

Anyway...he got the job. I think if you are honest you will too...

 

[klhoard]

UPT Bust. . .

I would highly recommend that you put the UPT bust on your application. As long as you've had a long history of successful checkrides since then, it will give you an "I learned about that. . ." story to fill up some time during the interview.

I listed my busted T-38 checkride on my FedEx app and the interviewer used about 2.2 seconds of interview time covering it. He looked me in the eye and asked me about it, read the look on my face, and as I began to launch into my "I learned. . ." story, interrupted me and moved to the next question. I'm convinced he only wanted to judge my reaction to the question.

However. . . . let me share the cautionary tale of one of my squadron mates. . .

Pilot "X" came up to Memphis and stayed with me for his FDX interview. Of course, I briefed him as thoroughly as I could having only interviewed myself a few months prior. He passed the simulator with flying colors. Passed the Situation Based Interview with flying colors. Pilot X had mega-hours in military learjets and heavy C-130's. He held many, many leadership roles; aircraft commander, instructor, and evaluator pilot. Well, FDX turned him down for employment.

When I asked him about the interview in more detail, I found out that the interviewer had asked him ". . . in XX years of service, you have never busted a checkride?" That's when he told the interviewer that "well, I busted a checkride during UPT, but that doesn't count". Apparently the interviewer then went into several followup questions and discussion about what counts and doesn't count as a checkride.

Technique only - you don't want to be a participant in this conversation. List the UPT bust, have a great life changing story associated with it, and certainly don't risk having them find out on their own.

FDX doesn't disclose the actual reasons why they didn't offer employment, but this is my best guess based on debriefing. Hopefully people with experience sitting on the other side of the table and counseling others will tell me I'm wrong.

 

[TonyC]

One of the entries has me wondering what I should do. Under the "Cockpit Crewmember History Data" setion, there is subsection titled "Proficiency Check" and a question asking, "Have you ever had a proficiency check failure? (including: initial, transition, upgrade, recurrent, or other evaluation)."

I failed two checkrides way back when during pilot training (UPT). ...

Anyway, how should I answer this question on the ATA app?

It would seem to me that most of the responses so far have failed to take into account the explanatory information included in the question. In other words, many (if not most) have jumped on the single word "check" and based their opinion on their interpretation of that word. So, it boils down to what the meaning of "is" is.

The question explains itself to a great extent. First, the qualifier "Proficiency" eliminates many of the circumstances where the word as applied by the military, or a particular school, or an individual FBO might use it. If my FBO requires that a student pass a refueling "check" before I allow him to sign out an airplane for a solo flight (in addition to the other obvious prerequesites) and Student X fails the check because he fails to connect a grounding wire in the FBO-prescribed manner, should he report that refueling check failure on his ATA application? Of course not.

Just because the military chooses to use the word "check" to prescribe particular events, it doesn't mean that that "check" fits the intended definition of a "proficiency check." The only "checkride" taken in UPT that qualifies as a "Proficiency Check" in THIS context (Initial, Transition, Upgrade, Recurrent, etc.) is the Form 8 check, as has been previously noted. End of block failures require retraining in much the same fashion as those "checkrides," and in fact could trigger elimination, even though they don't have the "checkride" designation. Additionally, note who administers the contact check, the form check, etc. - - Check Section, not Stan Eval. If Stan Eval administers it, and you get a Form 8, it's a Proficiency Check (I,T,U,R, etc.) - - otherwise, it doesn't fit the definition.

It's not an issue of owning up to mistakes, either. The question on the application is not "Have you ever made a mistake?" to which we might answer "Yeah, there was this one time I overshot final, but I really learned a lot from that." It seems to me that anyone that would form this intent in trying to justify reporting a T-37 pre-contact bust is trying to read FAR too much into the question.

The military equivalent of the checkride in question is ANY and ALL Form 8 rides, and nothing else.

 

[RShebib]

Amen TonyC........

 

[flyhard]

Tony C,

How would you define "other evaluation"? You seem to contradict yourself.

 

[firstthird]

I was Navy so am not entirely certain what a 'Form 8' check is but apparently it is a NATOPS check once you have wings. According to some of the logic being posted then, I didn't have any checkrides before I got my wings whereas I remember quite a few. It can get into sematics but arguing semantics with an interviewer is not where any of us want to be.

I look at it from this point of view, the week I got my wings I took an FAA equivalency test that entitled me to my single and multiengine commercial & instrument ratings. So apparently, I was able to have all those ratings having passed no checkrides up to that point because none were Form 8s? I disagree.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it is likely we all won't agree and sing kumbiya to end the thread, but I for one come down on the side that it is better safe than sorry and to admit to any training busts.

 

[Falconjet]

AF?

I hate to sound biased, but quite often AF pilots in particular like to think that they are the only military pilots out there and that everyone else should know what a Form 8 is. This is not the case. Lots of pilots didn't go through AF flight training and will have no idea what the subtle distinction is between an AF Form 8 check and a check ride. Its like porn, if you see it you will know it. If you feel that you busted a check ride, you probably busted a checkride. The fact that you are adking the question indicates that you probably busted a checkride. Who cares, get it out in the open and move on. It would behoove you to put it down and use it to your advantage, rather than be discovered later to have possibly mis-represented your record (in the interviewer's mind, not necessarily yours) and lose a job opportunity over a perceived (or actual) lack of integrity. You have WAY much more to gain by owning up and using the story in your interviews than you have to lose by disclosing the "bust".

 

[ChichiAV8B]

If its questionable in YOUR mind, then I would go ahead and tell them about it. Its better to show them you learn a lesson than to have an interviewer get all bent out of shape because you ommited a military checkride. I was asked a similar question on my interview. I failed an instrument checkride before I joined the military. I came clean and told them I screwed up an NDB approach and how it taught me a lesson, bla, bla, bla. Be upfront. If they are a serious outfit, they will want to hear your story and decide from there. Good luck.

 

[RShebib]

Re: AF?

I hate to sound biased, but quite often AF pilots in particular like to think that they are the only military pilots out there and that everyone else should know what a Form 8 is. This is not the case. Lots of pilots didn't go through AF flight training and will have no idea what the subtle distinction is between an AF Form 8 check and a check ride.

That's why there are several people here who have posted and tried to explain the differences between a progress ride in UPT (that's undergraduate pilot training for those non Air Force people) and a real checkride (form 8) during their Air Force flying career......there are obviously 2 distinct sides on this issue, and I think the bottom line is, that there are good arguments on both sides.....each person has to make their own decision based on how they view the situation and how they would answer the question in an interview if asked

 

[learherkjay]

Proficiency Check.

As a current UPT instructor for both Navy and AF pilots. A UPT checkride is NOT a proficiency check. We call it a check ride, but it is truly another ride in the syllabus. When our students finish UPT they are not qualified T-38/T-1 pilots. They would have to take a proficiency checkride to become such qualified pilots. I think you are in the right to say you have not busted any checkrides.

 

[FastCargo]

.02 dollars...

Here's what I did...

First, I'm with the 'yes' folks on this...it's much easier to tell the truth than try to lawyer your way out of it. I busted one ride in UPT (my first T-37 midphase) and 1 checkride in the active (1994 T-38 check). Both busts were legit, I was a doofus. The question really becomes...how did you deal with it? In my opinion, that's what the HR people really want to know. Basically, as far as flying wise, I THINK as long as you don't show a bad pattern (multiple busts, flight discipline problems, etc) I don't think it matters...

It worked for me...got hired at both companies I interviewed with. Maybe I was lucky...but this was mid 2001.

Hope this helps!

Fly Safe

FastCargo

 

[JohnDoe]

Seems like people here are getting all caught up in the "checkride" only portion of the question. There is also the all-encompassing phrase "or other EVALUATION."

Seems to me, if these upt checks result in either a pass or fail result.......it is an evaluation. If it wasn't, there'd be no failing them.


Having a busted "check," whatever it may be, is not automatic grounds for rejection.........Being caught in a lie, whether it is perceived or real, WILL get you booted from training or even from the line in most companies.

I'd 'fess up to it if I were in your position.

 

[GVFlyer]

I agree you should disclose this and am amazed by the responses to the contrary.


GV Flyer's responses really bother me. As a civillian pilot, and someone who interviews for civillian pilot openings from time to time, I take a very dim view of the "it happened in the military outside the regulatory authority of the FAA" excuse. A few months ago I was about mowed through by a T-34C doing acro in IMC between PNS and MOB. Last year a C172 was whacked by a F-16 that blew through a clearance limit and our airline has had several close calls with T-38's. If I am not mistaken we have hired and subsequently fired military pilots who failed to report events that would have been considered incident, or accidents, under the FAR's.

~~~^~~~

It's not an excuse, it's military regulation which constitutes administrative law. The services are precluded from providing the names of military pilots to the FAA in the event of a FAA Enforcement Investigative Report. When we received a Letter of Investigation it was a military responsibility to determine the appropriate response to the FAA allegation. It could be no action, a letter of reprimand, a downgrade, additional training, or a board action which could strip the pilot of his wings, but the responsibility remained the military's.