Failed check during UPT: put it on app?

[stillaboo]

Re: Re: AF?

Originally posted by RShebib

That's why there are several people here who have posted and tried to explain the differences between a progress ride in UPT (that's undergraduate pilot training for those non Air Force people) and a real checkride (form 8) during their Air Force flying career......there are obviously 2 distinct sides on this issue,

Better hope your interviewer is AF then, b/c otherwise you're a liar if he doesn't see it your way.

Face it, military guys, you busted something designed to assess your proficiency. Disclose it, tell them what you learned, and move on. Don't try to use semantics and legal-ese to get out of it. If you have to wiggle out, then I wouldn't hire you.

editied to reflect RShebib's quote

 

[RShebib]

Re: Re: Re: AF?

Better hope your interviewer is AF then, b/c otherwise you're a liar if he doesn't see it your way.

Face it, military guys, you busted something designed to assess your proficiency. Disclose it, tell them what you learned, and move on. Don't try to use semantics and legal-ese to get out of it. If you have to wiggle out, then I wouldn't hire you.

It's amazing how much "anti-military" sentiment there is on this board. The pilot training checks are not checkrides. Period. Like someone else mentioned here earlier, when I finished UPT, I was not qualified to fly the T-38. There are no rides in pilot training that qualifies as a checkride. When someone is getting their private pilots license, and their IP takes them up on their last ride before he's going to send him to the FAA check pilot, but then that IP decides he's not ready and makes him fly that ride again.....is THAT a busted checkride?

Similar situation in the Air Force. The student in UPT wasn't ready to progress out of contact, or formation, or instruments so he does it again before moving on, NOT before becoming a qualified Air Force pilot in a designated aircraft.

Too many people are assuming that AF or military pilots are trying to use semantics to get out of admitting to busting a checkride when, in fact, they are not the same thing as a busted civilian, FAA checkride.

Everyone can answer this question for themself. Either way they answer, they would be justified and not just legal-easing their way out....and don't worry stillaboo, if this is your attitude towards military pilots, I wouldn't want to work for you anyway.

 

[Bake]

This may have already been said but I'll say it again. Checkrides in UPT are NOT "checkrides" as is the PPL. The biggest difference is that the progress checks in the military are not given by check airmen. They are straight up instructors who are taking one picture. They are not licensed evaluators either by military or civilian officials. Yes, the military licenses its own evaluators. If you want to put it on your app I say go ahead but it is definitely not a checkride. For all you civilians who think these are checkrides and are crying that it is not fair, These checkrides are like stage checks at a 141 school to make sure you are progressing. No license is issued if you pass and no pink slip if you don't. I just gives you a snapshot of how you are doing. So quit whining. It doesn't make a camels balls whether he/she puts it on an app or not because any airline official who is reviewing it will know the difference between a military checkride and a stage check.

Respectfully,

BAke

 

[Falconjet]

It was RShebib who said:

"That's why there are several people here who have posted and tried to explain the differences between a progress ride in UPT (that's undergraduate pilot training for those non Air Force people) and a real checkride (form 8) during their Air Force flying career......there are obviously 2 distinct sides on this issue,....."

Not me (Falconjet).

No big deal, I just don't want folks thinking I was defending the mentality that something that happens in AF UPT is a deep dark secret that the rest of the world and potential employeers have no need to know about it.

Peace

 

[RShebib]

Re: Wrong quote

I just don't want folks thinking I was defending the mentality that something that happens in AF UPT is a deep darkk secret that the rest of the world and potential employeers have no need to know about it.


Peace

No one is saying to keep it a deep dark secret, Falcon, just that they are not FAA equivalent checkrides. If asked in an interview, everyone who busted these rides in UPT would have NO problem admitting to the fact, and have an excellent answer as to how they learned from that experience and how it eventually made them a better pilot.

 

[Falconjet]

AF vs Military

Bake and other AF guys:

Again with all due respect, it would be helpful to not generalize the AF UPT checks as "military" checks. They are "AIR FORCE" checks. I spent 20 years in the "military", went through NAVY flight training, and have no idea what a form 8 ride or phase check is.

Yes it may be semantics, but there are other military services out there that run things a bit differently than the AF.

I don't think anti military sentiment is what your sensing, its simply that most folks think its better to be upfront with a bust of any kind rather than to risk getting put on the defensive in an interview.

 

[learherkjay]

Okay, I will try it this way. Like I said, I instruct AF and Navy students in pilot training. In fact, I am the one that puts all of their graduating paperwork together, and I complete their final flight records paperwork (both Navy and AF). There is no piece of paper anywhere (AF or Navy) that states whether or not a newly winged military pilot passed or failed a syllabus "checkride." That is because, as mentioned before, AF guys call "end of phase" rides checkrides. The instructor pilots that give these rides to the students during pilot training are not check airmen and are not qualified "evaluator" pilots. They are instructors who sign these guys off to the next phase of training. To provide the students in pilot training with commonality, the AF has historically called end of phase rides "checkrides" so that when this new pilot goes out into the "real" world of flying; they have an understanding of the process.
I understand that we military guys have a different lingo, but this is not some cover up by military guys and it is not an attempt to get by with a change in semantics.

 

[SWAnnabee]

Enough already

OK. I am going to ATTEMPT to put this issue to rest for all of us. First of all, I have received my private, instrument, commercial, multi-engine, and atp the same way as every other civilian-only pilot. Even though I am now military, I got all these rating BEFORE joining the service. I id it the same way, paying a flight instructor and flying the flights, then seeing an FAA examiner after taking a written.

I am now a military pilot and military flight instructor. I believe all the above qualifies me as able to see both sides of the issue. Now read this clip from a previous post carefully because it pretty much spells it out.

"When someone is getting their private pilots license, and their IP takes them up on their last ride before he's going to send him to the FAA check pilot, but then that IP decides he's not ready and makes him fly that ride again.....is THAT a busted checkride?"

Now let me expound on this a little. In Naval jet flight training a student flies several FAM flights up to a FAM-17 CHECK. Note the word CHECK here. After this check he/she is allowed to do their first solo. This is much like a civilian flight instructor flying with a student, then allowing the student to take the next flight solo. Some students do not show a readiness for a solo on the next flight and may fail the FAM-17 "CHECK". They usally get a couple more flights to get them ready and then take the solo. NO LOGBOOK ENTRY OF A FAILURE IS MADE. NO "PINK" SLIP IS SENT TO THE FAA. We are arguing semantics here.

No, I would agree that, AFTER a military pilot has finished flight training and is "winged" and fails any annual proficiency check, this could be coonsidered a failed check. But ONLY in this case.

There are several flights throughout military flight training that WE IN THE MILITARY HAVE CHOSEN TO CALL CHECKS but this is NOT the same as it is in the civilian flight training world. (Remember, I have done both). If a civilian flight instructor decided to tell you, "Hey, I think you are ready to solo today as part of your PRIVATE PILOT training but before you do, lets do one more flight just as a "check", and after which he says"I think you need one more flight, then you will be ready fr your solo." would THIS be considered a FAILED "CHECK" RIDE???? Absolutely not.

 

[stillaboo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AF?

It's amazing how much "anti-military" sentiment there is on this board. The pilot training checks are not checkrides.....and don't worry stillaboo, if this is your attitude towards military pilots, I wouldn't want to work for you anyway.

I agree that there is a difference b/t something that happens in UPT and an F8. However, I still think you should put it on your app. All it takes is one guy to say 'hey, I've got some info that pilot X busted this flight, and . . . nope he didn't disclose it. Hmm, interesting.'

If it's no big deal that you didn't go through UPT perfectly, than why is it such a big deal to not disclose it? Seems counter-intuitive to me.

As far as labeling me (and the board) as 'anti-military' b/c I and many others disagree with you about this one thing . . . sorry you see it that way. I'm really not the enemy.

 

[RShebib]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AF?

If it's no big deal that you didn't go through UPT perfectly, than why is it such a big deal to not disclose it? Seems counter-intuitive to me.


As far as labeling me (and the board) as 'anti-military' b/c I and many others disagree with you about this one thing . . . sorry you see it that way. I'm really not the enemy.

It has nothing to do with going through UPT perfectly, rather...you know, I'm tired of trying to explain this....if you don't get it by reading previous post, then you'll never get it....

I didn't label this board as anit military, but there seem to be some who have problems with it......I have no problem with people who disagree with me....especially concerning much about civilian aviaition...that's why I'm here--to learn.....but there are ways to disagree while concentrating on the facts and points being made, and then there are ways to criticize the background of those who are making the points.......

 

[ChichiAV8B]

BOZT45 is right.

 

[TonyC]

Proficiency Check

Tony C,

How would you define "other evaluation"? You seem to contradict yourself.

First, let me answer how I would NOT define "other evaluation." I would NOT say that "other evaluation" encompasses any and all other types of flights, ground exams, or simulator rides that anybody has a mind to characterize or label as a "check." That simply doesn't make sense, based on the four specific examples of proficiency checks given ("initial, transition, upgrade, recurrent").

I also will not attempt to list each and every check that does fit the characterization. If that were possible, the author of the application might have done so in the first place.

I will attempt, though, to explain what "initial, transition, upgrade, recurrent" means, and what a "Proficiency Check" is in that context. Initial, Transition, Upgrade, and Recurrent training programs are formal programs submitted to the FAA for approval and oversight that result in the issuance or retention (in the case of recurrent) of an Airman's Certificate, or an addition thereto. For example, when a pilot is hired as a pilot/crewmember at a Part 121 airline, he might begin an Initial Training course that will ultimately result in his receiving an FE rating in the 727. The Proficiency Check he receives at the conclusion (almost) of that formal course is an a Proficiency Check in an Initial Course. After he completes IOE he begins revenue flying, and a year after his Initial Proficiency Check, he is required to undergo a Recurrent Proficiency Check. Perhaps the next year, he is senior enough to bid a different aircraft, maybe the DC-10 Flight Engineer seat. So, he goes through a formal course to Transition to the same seat of a different airplane. Again, he takes a Proficiency Check at the conclusion of that Transition syllabus. Later in life, he becomes senior enough to move up the the right seat of the same airplane -- he goes through the Upgrade syllabus, and takes an Upgrade Proficiency Check. Someday, he becomes senior enough to move up to the right seat of the MD-11. When he nears the end of the MD-11 transition syllabus (same seat, different aircraft = transition) he takes a Proficiency Check that also is a Type Rating ride. A type rating ride is an example of "other evaluation" that fits the intent of this "Proficiency Check."

What do all of these (Initial, Transition, Upgrade, Recurrent) have in common? First, they are all administered by a Check Airman - - either an FAA Check Airman or a Designated Examiner. The standards for each of these are detailed in the FARs. Failure of any of these Proficiency checks requires specific action. Not only will the applicant not receive the qualification for which he is applying, it will be revoked or rescinded if he already has it. The FAA receives formal notice of the failure. The FAA receives formal notice of successful accomplishment.

What other types of "checks" fit this description? Private Pilot checkride? I think so. Instrument Rating ride? I think so. Commercial Rating ride? I think so. Any Type Rating ride? I think so. T-37 Mid-phase? NO.

Originally posted by Falconjet
I hate to sound biased, but quite often AF pilots in particular like to think that they are the only military pilots out there and that everyone else should know what a Form 8 is.

I didn't mean to slight any Nasal Radiators but the question was couched in the context of USAF UPT, so I tried to answer it in that same context. I'm certainly no authority on Navy flight training, but I'd imagine that some of the concepts are the same.

Originally posted by learherkjay
When our students finish UPT they are not qualified T-38/T-1 pilots. They would have to take a proficiency checkride to become such qualified pilots.

Excellent point. Although I took 3 "check rides" in the T-38 during USAF UPT, I was not qualified to fly the T-38 in the same way a recipient of a Type Rating is qualified to fly a airplane of that type. In fact, even the last "checkride" that I took that resulted in the "Form 8" didn't qualify me to fly the T-38 -- it just gave me an Instrument Rating and started the cycle for my recurrent Instrument Proficiency checks.

When I got to my first formal course after UPT, I went through a syllabus that culminated in an event ALSO called a checkride. Successful completion of THAT checkride resulted in my being qualified to fly that airplane (and a Form 8). That ride would be considered a proficiency check on the Application being discussed in this thread.

When I got to my first assignment, I also had the privilege to fly the T-38 "on the side." Did my UPT "checkride" 4 months earlier qualify me to do so? NO. Rather, I was required to accomplish 2 checkrides, a Contact Check (Form 8) and an Instrument Check (yepp, another Form 8) before I could legally fly the T-38.

My next assignment was as a T-37 Instructor. You'd think my 3 T-37 checkrides in UPT would qualify me to at least FLY the T-37, right? Nope. Refresher training? Nope. Initial course, along with Form 8 Checkrides in Contact, Instrument, and Formation flying. Just to fly the airplane. More Form 8 Checkrides to become an Instructor.

I don't think I have to recount every sortie that I flew in the Air Force to paint a rather clear picture of the difference between a UPT "check" and a Proficiency Check referred to in the ATA application.

Originally posted by FastCargo
The question really becomes...how did you deal with it? In my opinion, that's what the HR people really want to know.

I respectfully disagree. If they want to know how you deal with adversity and failure, they have plenty of ways to ask during the interview. In fact, they can ASK you to recount a time in your life when you encountered adversity or failure, and recount how you dealt with it. THEN you can sing them the sweet song of how you grew, and repented, and have been strengthened.

Rather, I think (my opinion, mind you) they want to know if you're a safe risk to put through their formal training program, and if you can be expected to maintain an acceptable level of proficiency 6 months afterward. They have insurance underwriters to consider, after all. If you've stumbled during Proficiency Checks before, there's a fair chance you might again. If you've consistently performed well on PCs, you might perform well with them too. If you took an extra ride before solo, whether it was in UPT or at your local FBO, they don't give a hoot.

Originally posted by JohnDoe
Seems to me, if these upt checks result in either a pass or fail result.......it is an evaluation. If it wasn't, there'd be no failing them.

Unfortunately, the "test" is not that simple. In fact, every "event" -- every simulator ride, every airplane ride, every training event -- is graded. Excellent, Good, Fair, and Unsat were the grades when I was a student and an Instructor. In other words, every one was pass or fail. So, as a criteria for determining if a UPT "check" is a "Proficiency Check - (Initial, Transition, Upgrade, Recurrent, or other)" doesn't work. Otherwise, we took 2 or 3 "Proficiency Checks" every day for a year.

Originally posted by ~~~^~~~
A few months ago I was about mowed through by a T-34C doing acro in IMC between PNS and MOB. Last year a C172 was whacked by a F-16 that blew through a clearance limit and our airline has had several close calls with T-38's.

I've been on the other end of a few of those close calls myself. It seems that the term MOA means nothing to many general aviation enthusiasts. It's a 2-way street, and the issue really has no bearing on the question at hand.

Originally posted by ~~~^~~~
The intent of the question is to reveal busted PC's. If they only wanted to know about civillian checkrides, they would have worded the question differently.

I disagree with your assessment of intent, and I submit to you that the same logic can be used both ways. If they wanted to know about military pilot training end-of-phase rides, they could have asked about them specifically. After all, they're no secret.

 

[TonyC]

Proficiency Check Continued...

Originally posted by Bake
For all you civilians who think these are checkrides and are crying that it is not fair, These checkrides are like stage checks at a 141 school to make sure you are progressing. No license is issued if you pass and no pink slip if you don't. I just gives you a snapshot of how you are doing. So quit whining. It doesn't make a camels balls whether he/she puts it on an app or not because any airline official who is reviewing it will know the difference between a military checkride and a stage check.

As I read this post it occurred to me that 1) we didn't learn about camel anatomy in UPT and 2) I'm not qualified to comment about 141 training, as I have not received or given it, and so I can't determine whether a "stage check" fits the description of "Proficiency Checks (Initial, Transisiton, Upgrade, Recurrent, or other)." Although I consider myself to be knowledgeable to answer the question at hand, I could not answer the question "Should I report my Stage Check failure?" LIkewise, private pilots that have not been through or taught Air Force UPT are not really qualified to answer the question that began this thread. ANY body can offer an opinion, of course, but I think Delville would prefer an educated, qualified response.

Even so, the answer varies even among military-cum-civilian and civilian-cum-military aviators who have taken, administered, passed, and failed all of the above types of "checks" discussed. What is the intent of the question? What if the intent you divine differs from that of the individual who reads the application, or the individual who gives an interview? What are the winning numbers of the next LOTTO? Nobody knows.

You've gotten a lot of information - - sift through it, and make the decision that YOU feel most comfortable with. In the end, your comfort level in the interview is more important, anyway, because you must show the interviewers your best side. If you're worried about the T-37 Mid-Phase that you busted, or you're self-conscious about the color of the tie you're wearing, you're hurting yourself. Do what's right for you.

 

[Falconjet]

Good Points TC

Good Points Tony, especially at the end, where Delville is the only one who can answer the question for him. In his original post, he didn't mention what the checkrides were, just that he "failed two checkrides". Maybe that is why many of us think that they should reported. You mention a failed T-37 mid-phase, but we don't know for sure which of the many evaluations he busted, just that he failed two checkrides, thus the sentiment that they should be reported as other evaluations.

All that being said, Delville must live with him/herself and decide which answer is appropriate.

 

[RShebib]

Re: Good Points TC

In his original post, he didn't mention what the checkrides were, just that he "failed two checkrides". Maybe that is why many of us think that they should reported.

Falcon, we don't know which one of his rides in pilot training he busted, but we know it was in pilot training per his initial comments...whether it was a contact ride or a formation ride, it was still in UPT--which ride it was doesn't matter

 

[ivauir]

I am gonna weigh in again on this - it pains me because this darn thread has gone crazy but folks keep justifying not reporting this and I think folks could get hurt by it. In the legal sense of the word these were not check rides, but they sure felt like it. If the HR folks understand that these are not checkrides then they will dismiss your entry as a non counter and probably give you girl scout points for being honest. If they do not understand it and you report it you will probably get the chance to explain - if that is what you are worried about CALL HR, write a letter, but dont blow it off. If it worries you enough to ask here then you need to address this up front. But if you walk into an interview FEELING like you lied you will eliminate yourself.

You are a military pilot and proabably an instructor if not an evaluator in your weapon system - you have nothing to be ashamed of - a couple of tacos during UPT mean NOTHING compared to what you have done since. Report this, explain it if you feel you must and don't sweat it. The reality is these rides are part of who you became as a pilot - that is a good thing isn't it?

 

[learjetguy]

Just tell the truth, thats what I plan on doing if and when I ever get to interview with SWA ("No sir, Im not perfect."). There really should not be any concern as to weather or not you can successfully complete their training. I mean, my gosh, how many stories have you heard about those UNITED 300 hrs wonders getting hired and completing training. They are not going to disqualify you for a bust (how you define that is up to you) that occurred years ago anyways. Just smile and admit you screwed up, the real issue is your integrety. You will probably get hired.

Learguy

 

[klhoard]

Where the rubber meets the road. . .

Gentlemen,

I don't know if anyone read my earlier post on this, but I personally know of one guy who had this debate and the whole issue was resolved.

Unfortunately, he engaged in this debate with his interviewer during his face to face. The interviewer did not agree with his characterization that a UPT bust wasn't a "checkride" and he did not get hired.

I don't care how much you try to spin the issue or talk about camel testicles the decision of whether a UPT bust is a "checkride" will finally be made by the person sitting across from you at the interview table, NOT one of your peers on this message board. The interviewer doesn't care if you busted a checkride, only how you handled it. I would be willing to make a pretty hefty wager that the majority of airline interviewers in this country consider UPT checkrides just that - checkrides.

Therefore. . . . put the UPT bust on your application and let the interviewer make the call.

I'm just passing along some first-hand knowledge to the group. . . I would hate to see someone bust an interview in this job environment because they are trying to mince words.

 

[AIOS]

slightly different question but same topic..

long ago I failled a check airman ride. for those of you not familiar with this, check airman is NOT a license or rating it is just an authorization from the FAA to give check rides, if you pass they give you the letter, if you fail, there's no pink slip, they just don't give you the letter until you pass. This letter is company specific. (If you are check airman for ABC on the B737 this does not allow you to be check airman for XYZ on the B737).

If I apply for a pilot position somewhere and they ask about failed check ride, what would you guys do?

I'm thinking, I'm applying for a pilot position and failed a check airman ride, 2 differnent jobs. As a check airman I wasn't being tested on how I fly, actually I wasn't flying just observing. but I don't know. I don't want anybody to say that I m not honest at an interview but if there no need to mension it, it s just as good..

thanks

 

[stillaboo]

If in doubt, write it out (on the app).