Failed check during UPT: put it on app?

[Delville]

Guys,

Finishing up my ATA app. One of the entries has me wondering what I should do. Under the "Cockpit Crewmember History Data" setion, there is subsection titled "Proficiency Check" and a question asking, "Have you ever had a proficiency check failure? (including: initial, transition, upgrade, recurrent, or other evaluation)."

I failed two checkrides way back when during pilot training (UPT). Since getting my wings, I have taken probably thirty military checkrides and not failed any. I have heard conflicting guidance on UPT checkride failures. Most people I've heard from say don't include them. For example, when I handed in my resume package to AirTran at a conference, the screener asked me if I'd failed any checks. I said yes, during pilot training. He looked at me intently for a second or two like he was about to slap the side of my head, and told me the answer to that question was "no". He explained they don't count UPT checkride failures and it didn't make any sense to mention them.

Anyway, how should I answer this question on the ATA app? What is the prevailing philosophy? I don't want to include it if I don't have to but obviously want to avoid any integrity issues later.

Thanks!!

 

[kn65]

If possible I would avoid it. Too many qualified candidates without failures or whatever. It can only hurt you. That being said it is obviously your decision to make. I think it could be the kiss of death. Due to the pilot improvement act or whatever the official word for it is an air carrier would be saying they hired you even though they knew you had proficiency issues. In my mind that would make them more liable if you happened to do something wrong some day. (not saying that you would) Think long and hard on that one. Good Luck

 

[DrEvil]

You were not a "pilot" at that time, i.e. you were not rated, therefore I'd answer NO. Once you graduate and have your wings, checks from there. In fact, I'd go as far to say that they are talking about civilian proficiency checks and not military checks. If you went the fighter track, do you think they cared if you failed a formation check?

 

[DrEvil]

Your UPT checks are also NOT FAA/FAR checks, therefore this is more ammo to my "just say no" answer.

 

[Delville]

Thanks guys, that helps. I appreciate it!

 

[FDJ2]

A busted ride in military flight training is not what they are looking for. The answer is NO. If you had busted out of UPT that might be a different story, but basically you "trained to proficiency" and only needed a couple of extra rides to successfully complete a very demanding sylabus. Don't sweat it.

 

[SWAnnabee]

Instrument check

When I was 21yrs old I failed the oral on an instrument check. Rechecked and did fine and got the instrument rating. AFTER that I began attendance at Embry-Riddle. Graduated Aeronautical Science degree with all ratings through Commercial Multi-engine with a 3.17 GPA. Joined the Marines. Went to flight school and got jets. Out of jets selected Harriers. Attended Navy Aviation Safety School and became an Aviation Safety Officer in my squadron. Now an Naval Aviator Instructor pilot and a Standardization Pilot in my squadron. Just curious if anyone thinks I will have a problem with my record "blemish" from over 15 years ago? Appreciate any replies.

 

[ReportCanoa]

Uh... you go girll............

 

[firstthird]

I have to disagree with some of the previous posters. If an application asks if you have failed any checks, well, UPT checks are still checks. I'd be concerned about answering no and then at some point in the future having it turn up. And yes I know that airlines generally don't have access to military flight records.

This is just one guys opinion but this same type of debate goes on about driving records where some guys say, if it is older than 7 years then it won't show up on your record. Well, if the question asks about 7 years, then answer about 7 years. If the question asks about EVER, then answer about EVER. Lots of guys have a failed checkride(or received a ticket or two) but the rule of thumb is that the further in your past it is and the more positive checkrides you've passed since then, the less of a worry.

I mean what if one of the questions in your interview is about a time you didn't perform up to expectations and you come back with a story about failing your initial safe to solo checkride, the interviewer then looks at your application and sees you said you had never failed a checkride. Now you are in the unenviable position of being a sea lawyer and explaing how the guys on flightinfo said that since you weren't winged, it really wasn't a checkride. Of course, there is the possiblity that some airlines are looking for perfect pilots and that a failed checkride way in your past may rule you out, doesn't seem right but they are the ones doing the hiring they make the rules.

I'd err on the side of complete honesty and that way you don't have to remember who you told what. Also, from what I understand any discrepancy on an application for employment can be a reason for termination at any time. Say 10 years down the road when new management takes over and wants to make a statement to the pilot group. Far-fetched for sure but still, I'd say stay as honest as you can. Once hiring starts up, it will start up but the application you put in now will still be there years down the road. So if you decide later to submit an application that is "more correct" then the "less correct" one will still be in a file.

I know that on a resume we all leave off stuff that might not put us in the best of light but on the application I'd try to answer the question that is asked as honestly as possible. I seem to be in the minority so far on this thread, anyone else think that a checkride is a checkride?

 

[RShebib]

I respectfully disagree with firsthired......your checkrides in UPT are NOT form-8 checkrides.....the Instrument checkride, the last one in T-38s (back in the day) use to be a form 8 checkride....I have asked this question of many people...some of my friends who are on hiring boards at maj airlines, and they all said that not to put it on your application.....if you have a busted form 8 in your FEF, then that's one thing, but if not, leave it out......if they then ask you in the interview about it, be honest, but say that you understood that the UPT checkrides were not considered the same, and that's why you omitted them, not because you were trying to be dishonest......

 

[flyhard]

Being military has nothing to do with reporting a failed check. A failure is a failure no matter if it was in the civillian world or the military world. The failure shows that you made a mistake, and was able to continue on in your career by learning something. I guarantee it will not determine if you get the job or not at ATA. I personally think it is arrogant to think just because it was a military check, it doesn't apply to the civillian world. The app specifies "other evaluation" that to me would be the catch all wording. It is your choice, I guess you have to decide if you want to risk that million dollar career if it comes up in the background checks.

SWA wannabe,

If you would of had a 3.18 GPA they would not care about the failed oral. Now you have no chance, but thanks for coming out.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

Looking at the big picture and not counting any beans, I seriously doubt failing a checkride in UPT is as same as failing a FAA/airline checkride, so the short answer is "no". That's just my humble opinion. I asked this question to an airline HR person (I forgot which airline) and she said that military pilot training checkrides were n/a; according to her, it only applied to FAA/airline specific checkrides. Perhaps, each airline would have their own criteria.


SWAnnabe,
When I was in college, I worked on my instrument rating. When I went in for the oral, I failed because I was over confident and didn't study at all. I didn't even get to fly. I put that on my airline resume. The question never came up during the interview. If you are honest about it and admit your failure and lesson learned, that's all they are looking for. Believe me.... I learned my lesson!

 

[stillaboo]

That you have to ask makes the answer obvious:

If you failed a ride, you failed the ride. Then you passed it later. That's the part that matters. Very few applicants are perfect . . . but nobody who's hired is a liar.

 

[MachPi]

I hooked my final contact check in tweets. I listed that as a failed check on all my apps; I recall most (if not all) the apps allowed space to enlarge on the whats and the whys of the failure. I sweated that entry, but I would've sweat more if somewhere down the line I got called on it somehow.

I personally don't think interviewers give a rat's ___ about a UPT failed checkride, as long as the rest of your career was good. That checkride never came up in the (one and only) major interview for me, even though it was right under the interviewers' noses.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a moral problem to not include that check in your interview, for the reasons others have mentioned above.

My advice is: include it or not, depending on how it will make you feel. The affect it will have on your hiring prospects is negligible.

 

[GVFlyer]

Don't report it.

You were not a rated pilot at the time - you were in a military qualification course. It was not a Form 8 check. You were not exercising any FAA priveleges at the time nor were you attempting to gain a FAA rating.

 

[ivauir]

just to add another opinion ,, like there aren't enough already...

- Read the question VERY carefully.

Does this check ride show up in your form 8s? If not they'll never know and in fact it wasn't a check ride. If it was there would be a form 8.

But, the fact is that we ALL have skeletons. Those who think this is the kiss of death are WRONG - lots of pilots have failed checkrides and your recent POSITIVE record is much more important. Reporting this won't kill you and frankly not reporting it is probably fine too. But if you feel strange about not reporting it you will act strange at the interview. THAT will wipe you out.

My advice, ignore our advice, we're idiots and I for one have had too much wine. Get some professional advice (Rob Beeks), but in the mean time don't lie, don't confess, and answer the question asked.

 

[RShebib]

Flyhard....

You're misunderstanding the point....a military checkride is one thing....a UPT "progress check", which is what the students in the air force pilot training get, are another......you're just a student pilot trying to progress onto the next phase......now, once a military memeber gets his/her wings, and goes out and busts a form 8 ride which IS a checkride, that's an entirely different matter....I think you're puffing up a little over nothing....no one here is trying to compare civilian and military checkrides, just to say that progress checks as a student pilot do not constitute a busted check ride.....lighten up there francis!!!

 

[flyhard]

No dude I think you are missing it. If it such a nonissue then why not disclose it? If you feel comfortable not dislclosing it then do it. I just don't think I would want to be yanked out of class because I thought I could pull a fast one by a company over something stupid. Not a good way to start.

Now back to my regularly scheduled beer drinking.

 

[RShebib]

It's not about "pulling a fast one" over on anyone...it's about understanding what you're talking about.......the progress checks in UPT do not constitute as a failed checkride as far as the FAA is concerned and as far as the airlines are concerned.....so in that sense, you don't admit to busting a checkride when, in fact, you haven't........

 

[SWAnnabee]

Thanks. Seems from what I have heard is that many professional pilots have a failed check in their past somewhere. Only thing to do is to admit it and put a positive lesson learned on it. Mine was a definate case of trying to RUSH through the training too quickly. Learned a few lessons and hopefully wont be counted too heavily against me. Just wondering what weight it will carry in this COMPETITIVE marked these days.

 

[GVFlyer]

Re: Re: Don't report it.

So by that rationale if you went the civilian route and failed your private you should not report it because you were not a rated pilot and not exercising any FAA priviledges?

Obviously, you are not a military pilot. I have over 5500 hours of military IP time, was an evaluator, and have been involved in the pilot selection process in the civil sector, so I consider myself to be qualified to speak to this issue. The check he failed was not a qualification producing evaluation as a civil Private Pilot Flight Examination would have been. It was a progress or phase check and considered to be a part of training - nothing more.







.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree you should disclose this and am amazed by the responses to the contrary.

As long as good moral character is required to hold the ATP certificate you have an obligation to be honest.

I agree that it is not the "kiss of death" or anything to be greatly concerned about. If anything, it allows you to deflect the question about a "learning experience" or "tell us when you made a mistake and how you handled it." By talking about a relatively minor checkride bust in a candid and humble way it allows you to disavow perfection, and talk about what you did to achieve a successful result.

GV Flyer's responses really bother me. As a civillian pilot, and someone who interviews for civillian pilot openings from time to time, I take a very dim view of the "it happened in the military outside the regulatory authority of the FAA" excuse. A few months ago I was about mowed through by a T-34C doing acro in IMC between PNS and MOB. Last year a C172 was whacked by a F-16 that blew through a clearance limit and our airline has had several close calls with T-38's. If I am not mistaken we have hired and subsequently fired military pilots who failed to report events that would have been considered incident, or accidents, under the FAR's. The intent of the question is to reveal busted PC's. If they only wanted to know about civillian checkrides, they would have worded the question differently.

~~~^~~~

 

[AlbieF15]

For what's its worth, I put "yes" for a busted UPT check...but it wasn't the Form 8 I check RShebib mentioned, it was an earlier phase check.

I managed to get hired at FDX and JetBlue, my only interviews. I never sweated them "discovering" the bust, as I disclosed it along with a statement on the app like "although not an official checkride, in 1988 I did bust a T-38 contact phase check. I went on to complete the phase check, graduated from UPT and was selected for the fighter track. Since that date I have never failed a checkride."

In my opinion, I used a negative (a bust) to highlight a positive (picked for fighter track...back "in the day" of FAR selections) and no subsequent problems. I also hopefully added to my credibility by proving I was honest and upfront about any past issues.

I have personally helped pilots get hired at FDX and JetBlue that were terminated by employers, arrested and jailed (and not a DUI), as well as some other issues. Maybe I'm naive, but I really think employers care more about who you are now that mistakes you made 10+ years ago.

Its a tough call--but my advice is always to pony up with the truth.

Fly safe.

 

[Falconjet]

Definitely tell the story

I think that you should definitely consider that a busted checkride and note it in the apps. A brief explanation and the learning experience you received would also make excellent interview answer material. The integrity issue by far outwieghs any concerns they might have over a busted progress check back in flight training. It seems they almost prefer that you have had some kind of bust that you learned from in your past. I doubt it will hurt your chances at all, whereas omitting a potential bomb could be devastating later on. Not worth it in my book. Good luck.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

I agree with Falconjet, Albie and the others who recommend that you should disclose the busted UPT check ride.

The question did not ask, "Did you ever fail a Form 8 checkride?" It asked, "Did you ever fail a checkride?"

That being said, a UPT progress check is a checkride, albeit perhaps not as important as any subsequent Form 8 checks.

As many in this thread have written, admit to having busted the check. Then, explain that there is no record of the bust due to the fact that you were not a rated pilot at the time, and the Air Force keeps no records of these checks.

Handling it in this way will do two things. First, it makes you look very honest. Second, it gives you a chance to use it as an important learning experience.

I have two busted UPT checkrides in my history (but none since), and have been hired at each of the airlines with which I have interviewed -- US Airways, Southwest, and JetBlue.

Just list it on your app, briefly explain it, then don't sweat it. It will probably never come up in an interview anyway.

Good luck.

 

[RedC5Guy]

Albie,

Good post! No one is perfect. Be it a ticket, check-ride, a "D" in high-school Physics (yep, that would be me), etc. we have ALL made a mistake somewhere, sometime. If the airline you desire to work for won't even interview you based on the fact that you made a mistake then I say that's a shame. Most people learn from the mistakes of themselves or others. The "learning curve of life"!

I don't know if anyone can say with any certainty that a busted check is a "kiss-of-death" or not. I guess it depends, in large part, on the particular situation and the culture of the airline to which you are applying. I think that I would sleep better at night knowing that I put everything on the app and that I won't get yanked from class or probation to explain an "event".

Red

 

[tkr-toad]

How about failing my ATP check?

I, like some others here, failed some progress checks in UPT. Then years of Form 8 checks with no problems. Well, long story short, I had the misfortune of busting my ATP check due to what I consider understandable circumstances. I passed the recheck with flying colors and I learned from it and I persevered and all that. BUT, just for my info, even with the most reasoned explanation, will this bite me in the hiney for getting an interview (like I said, once in the interview room I can mitigate it and hopefully proceed)?

 

[AlbieF15]

Another client of mine, a P3 NATOPs IP, busted his ATP checkride ORAL. He was taking it in, guess what...a P3 with an FAA old guy who had flown the electra.

Now...he's embarassed..but how does he handle it? We discussed some options.

Instead of saying "the 75 year old examiner had a chip on his shoulder, hated young military guys as being "spoiled", and had somthing to prove"...which was how he (and some other guys) truely felt, I recommended he say..

"Well...I thought I KNEW the P3 inside and out. Heck, I TAUGHT people in the plane and GAVE ORALs myself. But it quickly became apparent that as much as I knew, this guy knew a heck of a lot more. I was embarassed and humiliated when I went back to my squadron and reported to my bros my situation, but even more than that I was MAD! So I took what the FSDO guy said, dug into some Lockeed (vice just Navy) publications, researched like crazy, and then then went back the following Saturday and ACED my oral and my checkride. Other than that expereince, I've never busted a checkride. What I learned from the expereince was that no matter how sharp you think you are, there is always room for more knowledge and experience. I actually passed on a lot of what I learned from that old electra pilot back to my Navy bros..."

Anyway...he got the job. I think if you are honest you will too...

 

[klhoard]

UPT Bust. . .

I would highly recommend that you put the UPT bust on your application. As long as you've had a long history of successful checkrides since then, it will give you an "I learned about that. . ." story to fill up some time during the interview.

I listed my busted T-38 checkride on my FedEx app and the interviewer used about 2.2 seconds of interview time covering it. He looked me in the eye and asked me about it, read the look on my face, and as I began to launch into my "I learned. . ." story, interrupted me and moved to the next question. I'm convinced he only wanted to judge my reaction to the question.

However. . . . let me share the cautionary tale of one of my squadron mates. . .

Pilot "X" came up to Memphis and stayed with me for his FDX interview. Of course, I briefed him as thoroughly as I could having only interviewed myself a few months prior. He passed the simulator with flying colors. Passed the Situation Based Interview with flying colors. Pilot X had mega-hours in military learjets and heavy C-130's. He held many, many leadership roles; aircraft commander, instructor, and evaluator pilot. Well, FDX turned him down for employment.

When I asked him about the interview in more detail, I found out that the interviewer had asked him ". . . in XX years of service, you have never busted a checkride?" That's when he told the interviewer that "well, I busted a checkride during UPT, but that doesn't count". Apparently the interviewer then went into several followup questions and discussion about what counts and doesn't count as a checkride.

Technique only - you don't want to be a participant in this conversation. List the UPT bust, have a great life changing story associated with it, and certainly don't risk having them find out on their own.

FDX doesn't disclose the actual reasons why they didn't offer employment, but this is my best guess based on debriefing. Hopefully people with experience sitting on the other side of the table and counseling others will tell me I'm wrong.

 

[TonyC]

One of the entries has me wondering what I should do. Under the "Cockpit Crewmember History Data" setion, there is subsection titled "Proficiency Check" and a question asking, "Have you ever had a proficiency check failure? (including: initial, transition, upgrade, recurrent, or other evaluation)."

I failed two checkrides way back when during pilot training (UPT). ...

Anyway, how should I answer this question on the ATA app?

It would seem to me that most of the responses so far have failed to take into account the explanatory information included in the question. In other words, many (if not most) have jumped on the single word "check" and based their opinion on their interpretation of that word. So, it boils down to what the meaning of "is" is.

The question explains itself to a great extent. First, the qualifier "Proficiency" eliminates many of the circumstances where the word as applied by the military, or a particular school, or an individual FBO might use it. If my FBO requires that a student pass a refueling "check" before I allow him to sign out an airplane for a solo flight (in addition to the other obvious prerequesites) and Student X fails the check because he fails to connect a grounding wire in the FBO-prescribed manner, should he report that refueling check failure on his ATA application? Of course not.

Just because the military chooses to use the word "check" to prescribe particular events, it doesn't mean that that "check" fits the intended definition of a "proficiency check." The only "checkride" taken in UPT that qualifies as a "Proficiency Check" in THIS context (Initial, Transition, Upgrade, Recurrent, etc.) is the Form 8 check, as has been previously noted. End of block failures require retraining in much the same fashion as those "checkrides," and in fact could trigger elimination, even though they don't have the "checkride" designation. Additionally, note who administers the contact check, the form check, etc. - - Check Section, not Stan Eval. If Stan Eval administers it, and you get a Form 8, it's a Proficiency Check (I,T,U,R, etc.) - - otherwise, it doesn't fit the definition.

It's not an issue of owning up to mistakes, either. The question on the application is not "Have you ever made a mistake?" to which we might answer "Yeah, there was this one time I overshot final, but I really learned a lot from that." It seems to me that anyone that would form this intent in trying to justify reporting a T-37 pre-contact bust is trying to read FAR too much into the question.

The military equivalent of the checkride in question is ANY and ALL Form 8 rides, and nothing else.