FAF on an ILS approach?

[a&p cfiguy]

What's the FAF on an ILS approach? Is it glideslope intercept or the maltese cross? I've always said the maltese cross, but some say differently. My argument is what if you intercept glideslope at 4000 feet, that puts you like 15 miles out, that can't be FAF, right? Some approaches hit both glideslope intercept and the cross at the same time, but many do not. So which is it?

 

[wheelsup]

GS intercept at the published altitude in my book. We talked about this in indoc too - so it is the source of confusion even on the line I'm guessing. The maltese cross in the FAF for the LOC only.

 

[RichardRambone]

GS intercept while on the localizer is your FAF on a precision approach. Even if you're at 4000 feet or so. But, you still wait until you hit that maltese cross to start your 5 T's. That maltese cross is there if the GS is out of service, meaning it becomes a non-precision approach, to tell you where the FAF starts on a non-precision approach.

 

[great cornholio]

It GS intercept at the published intercept altitude. So if published intercept is 3000 and you intercept the GS at 9000 then you will be at the FAF when you go thru 3000 on the GS.

 

[nosehair]

Look at the legend page (up front) in your apprach chart book.
Under Profile Symbols, you will see the maltese cross depicted a the FAF symbol for non-precision approaches. On an ILS approach chart, this would be if you are doing a localizer only.
You will see the little lightning bolt symbol for Glide Slope Intercept Altitude and FAF for prcision final approach.

Go to the source.

 

[avbug]

Published Glide Slope Intercept Altitude (GSIA) represents the FAF for a precision approach...unless the glideslope is intercepted at a lower point, in which case this becomes the FAF.

If the glide slope is intercepted at an altitude higher (farther out) than the published GSIA, you have not reached the FAF until crossing through the published GSIA on the approach, on the glideslope.

In other words, the FAF is at GSIA on the glideslope, or any point closer to the runway (lower altitude) at which one intercepts it while being vectored.

Intercepting the glideslope farther from the runway or at a higher altitude than the published GSIA does NOT constitute the FAF...one continues down the glideslope until reaching GSIA...then one is at the FAF.

 

[a&p cfiguy]

understood. So if the published GSIA is 4000 feet, you intercept it at 4000 feet then the wx goes below minimums, you are beyond the FAF and can continue the approach (135 or 121 rules), right? But if you intercept it at 6000 and the weather goes below minimums before you are at 4000, then you must abort the approach, correct?

 

[avbug]

Grasshopper, you have applied your new found knowledge well.

Now, pluck the marble from my palm.

 

[avbug]

I should note that the regulation has changed regarding 135 operations, when you can and can't continue. Formerly, the regulation was found in 135.225(c), and stipulated that no pilot under that part may begin the final approach segment unless the weather is above minimums, as follows:

(c) No pilot may begin the final approach segment of an instrument approach procedure to an airport unless the latest weather reported by the facility described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section indicates that weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that procedure.

Currently, the regulation stipulates in 135.225(a)(2) the same thing; one may not begin the proceedure unless weather is at or above minimums, as follows:

a) Except to the extent permitted by paragraph (b) of this section, no pilot may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport unless--
...
(2) The latest weather report issued by that weather reporting facility indicates that weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that airport.

The exception given is 135.225(b),which refers specifically to eligible on-demand operators...operators who are authorized to conduct approaches at locations where approved weather is not available.

(b) A pilot conducting an eligible on-demand operation may begin an instrument approach procedure to an airport that does not have a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by the U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator if--
(1) The alternate airport has a weather reporting facility operated by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by the U.S. National Weather Service, or a source approved by the Administrator; and
(2) The latest weather report issued by the weather reporting facility includes a current local altimeter setting for the destination airport. If no local altimeter setting for the destination airport is available, the pilot may use the current altimeter setting provided by the facility designated on the approach chart for the destination airport.

Paragraph 135.225(c), now revised, refers back to paragraph (b), also making it applicable to eligible on-demand operations. It specifically cites passing the FAF on a precision approach, but this applies to eligible on demand operators who hold this approval in their operations specifications (OpSpec A057, and as described in 135.4), and applies specifically to operations to an airport where approved weather reporting is not available (but a source for an altimeter setting is available).

(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (b) of this section, and the pilot receives a later weather report indicating that conditions have worsened to below the minimum requirements, then the pilot may continue the approach only if the requirements of § 91.175(l) of this chapter, or both of the following conditions, are met--
(1) The later weather report is received when the aircraft is in one of the following approach phases:
(i) The aircraft is on an ILS final approach and has passed the final approach fix;...
(2) The pilot in command finds, on reaching the authorized MDA or DH, that the actual weather conditions are at or above the minimums prescribed for the procedure being used.

The following paragraph, 135.225(d) refers back to paragraph (c), which refers to (b)...making it also applicable specifically to eligible on-demand operations.

(d) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (c) of this section and a later weather report indicating below minimum conditions is received after the aircraft is--
(1) On an ILS final approach and has passed the final approach fix...
the approach may be continued and a landing made if the pilot finds, upon reaching the authorized MDA or DH, that actual weather conditions are at least equal to the minimums prescribed for the procedure.

Paragraphs (c) and (d) contain the provision that one may continue once inside the FAF, if the weather report indicates that the weather has dropped below minimums (but is at or above minimums on arrival at DH/MDA)...but this only applies, by the language of the regulation, to eligible on-demand operators. As written, the language does not apply to everyone. Have a look. I'm betting most operators who look at the regulation don't realize it's changed, or don't note that change. It's over a year old.

The provision that applied once to everyone applies only to those approved for eligible on demand operations, and is written such that it covers approaches only to eligible on demand operations airports...approaches conducted at airports not having approved weather (but having an available altimeter source, as described above). A definite potential "gotcha."

 

[DrewBlows]

Listen to Avbug. He is 100% correct, anyone who says otherwise is mistaken.