FAA "Loss of Separation" Letter. (?)

[Badger]

Got a letter new yrs. eve from the FAA regarding a 135 flight 2 months ago claiming that a loss of separation occurred betw. us (Citation) and a Comair flight. (we were @ FL250).

I checked with the PIC to cross check our memories on the flight and there was nothing out of the ordinary from the controllers, no corrective statements etc.). I'm dumfounded & frightened that they've started a witchunt on me(SIC) and the PIC.

They're expecting a response w/i 10 days. Neither one of us has any idea where to start with this one. What a kick in the balls.

Any suggestions very welcome.

 

[bobbysamd]

Kick in balls

It is. You should not, and must not, go it alone. You need to speak with someone.

TODAY, line up an aviation attorney. If you're an AOPA member, start there. Give a counselor a call. Explain the situation and ask for a referral. Look in your local phone directory for a lawyer. You should at least speak with an aviation attorney before answering this letter.

Also, consider speaking with your Chief Pilot. Maybe your company has some kind of insurance coverage.

Hope that helps a little. What a way to start out the New Year.

 

[501261]

Get a good lawyer! AOPA's plan is great if you have it, and you don't nessarily have to use one of their lawyers. They will reimburse you up to a certain amount if you use someone not on the plan.

Ok, let's think this thing through from a WORST case scenario, as the SIC in this situation the worst possible outcome will probably be a small suspension (look at FAA Order 2150.3, Compliance and Enforcement for specifics), I know that sounds bad but its not the end of the world or your career!

There's a ton of information available on the web, use it. Specifically get a copy of the Aviation Inspector's handbook FAA order 8700.1, it will tell you everything the ASI is doing or going to do, all the forms you recieve (Letter of Investigation, NOPCA, etc.) will also be there, these letters are in "cookie cutter" format and all they do is change the name and violation to fit the suitor.

All lot of the information available on the web, tells you not to admit to anything, and deny you were flying. Well, guess what? You got a letter, didn't you? I think they know you were flying, so while I'm not a lawyer, I wouldn't waste to much time looking into the "denial" strategy, its been my experience that the "denial" stategy only pisses off the inspector and makes them work a little harder, especially when they already know its you.

Now the big thing to do here, is to make sure you make no incriminating remarks, especially if your lawyer wants to respond to the letter of investigation. Anytime you communicate with the ASI, make sure you don't do anything incriminating!

Also remember you are the person, that can help your case the most! It is after all your certificate on the line! So make sure you research everything your lawyer, company, PIC, etc. is doing and make sure it is in YOUR best interests!

Good luck and keep your head up!

 

[ACE]

Call your union reps right now. Let them deal with it. That is what your union dues are for.

 

[ACE]

Sorry, I read that wrong. I thought you were the Comair crew. Listen to Bobbysamd.

 

[ClassG]

Wish I had good advice, but only have a question for you.

How could the FAA possibly know you were a crewmember if they have not requesitioned information from your DO or Ch. Pilot? Someone in flight operations must know something about this already? The only other way they would know who you are already is if you called the "advise when ready to copy this phone number" phone number.

(Unless your company files your crew names and airman id numbers with the flight plan?) Anyway, just wondering HOW they tracked you down.?

Would be good information to have for future reference.
\Thanks.

 

[bin LAAidoff]

Like others suggested, get a Lawyer ASAP, and let counsel answer the letter.

If you are on a island free of lawyers and telephones, and insist on answering the letter yourself within 10 days, keep in mind that you must reply only (i.e acknowledge receipt), not confess or tell your story. Tell me where the no lawyer island is, I'd like to move there!

If your company has representation, great, but be careful, as they will represent the certificate holder, your company, perhaps at your expense. Accepting an altitude bust given to pilots may be cheaper for company than legal proceedings, maint records investigation (ie pitot static tests, transponder tests etc.). I personally would get independent cousel as CYA. Let your attorney decide how to work with company attorney.

Check out the book:
Violation: The Aero-Legal Resource Guide -- by James R. Campbell

Amazon.com has it

Will give you an idea why you unfortunately will need to spend $$$ on an attorney even though you dont recall doing anthing wrong. You do not have the "rights" that we all assume, ie. you are not protected from self incrimination in an FAA proceeding.

Good luck.

 

[Badger]

Crewmember identification.

How they know who was flying...

The letter came to the registered owner of the airplane...it contained the date/location/time of the 'conflict'. Our 135 records show who was in it that day.

The PIC WAS our chief pilot. However I hear some good points regarding his(their/135 certif holder) priorities vs. mine (still interested in a career). He's at the end of a career, I'm at the beginning. What's a letter to him if it saves the company $. Me...I get some BS letter stuck in my file that F$#Ks me at every turn in a career?

I like to think that some controller just really F##ked up and we have to be involved as part of the proceedings. Or does it sound like a lynching in the making?

On another note...with a letter of this nature, does brining a lawyer into the picture at this stage just make the FSDO work harder? I'd guess it would piss them off. Any ideas on what some lawyers would cost per hr. (roughly)?

Thanks.

 

[mar]

Call the ATC facility

Call the facility that filed the report and get some facts. You need to know what you're defending yourself against--if anything!!

Maybe you remember by now, but, from what I've read, you and your PIC still don't have any recollection of anything "out of the ordinary."

Your poor lawyer is gonna have a hard time with that and I'm sure he'll gladly charge you to do some homework.

Here's my story:

I'm holding at the IAF after a missed approach, non-radar. Company airplane inbound to same fix. He's cleared to 8000. We're cleared to climb to 7000 and then intercept the airway outbound to our alternate.

We're very busy: running checklists, talking to ATC and company, reprogramming the GPS.

I can't remember who did it, but one of us put 8000 in the altitude alerter.

So we bug out for the alternate (and we have company traffic on the TCAS the whole time). ATC says, Say position.

We're 22 miles NE of the beacon at 8000.

You can guess what happens next. I get the request to call the phone number on the ground.

I do so.

Since there's no radar the supervisor has to go by our reported positions. He determines "no loss of seperation."

I figure no harm, no foul.

I go home.

Two weeks later, my boss calls me into the office and wants to know what happened (FAA investigating).

Long story short (I'm trying, really): I get a Letter of Warning in my file--should be removed in two years. The FO received nothing!

The moral of the story:

*You need more facts
*If this turns out to be nothing, why pay a lawyer big bucks to find out for you?
*If this turns out to be something, you may not necessarily end up with what seems to be a career ending violation.
*Most airline applications I've filled out only ask for accidents or violations. Some (Northwest, e.g.) ask if you have ever received a Letter of Investigation.

Welcome to the club. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
Sorry for the long post.

 

[jetdriven]

i've had three of these events, and my advice to you is NOT to engage in conversation telephone or in person. IF you send him a response try to get it out on attoreny letterhead and do not admit to any of the facts, only acknowledge reciept of the letter.

his objective is to violate you nothing more. every thing you say to him helps his case.

If you want to help him out you are hurting yourself.

the lawyer I use charges a flat fee. he,s expensive but whats a couple grand versus damaging your career? Think earning potential.

SWA app asks for "all violations with which you've been charged"

be careful

PM me if I can help.

 

[cl-65link]

It's a shame you were not aware of the infraction until now. A NASA report, if one was filed, can help in the penalty phase, if there is one. However, from your previous posts, I assume that a report wasn't filed. Having gone through something similar myself in the past, all I can say is that the feds work Glacially slow on these types of things. Good luck to you.

 

[Smoking Man]

I have to go with the lawyer side of the argument, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING. This probably does not have a whole lot of relevance but, years ago in college I took some PAD courses (police something, we called them Pass Another Donut), regardless the first think that I tucked away in my memory is how much information that is gathered from you, how you say something, how you don’t say something, your body language, etc. Say nothing. Let the lawyer talk for you. Best of luck on the outcome.


Smoking Man

 

[fraitman]

Please, listen to JetDriven. It is well worth getting a lawyer. They will probably advise no response to the request for a letter. You are not obligated to respond, and in fact, lawyers often advise that you will only hurt your case, not help. The FAA uses it to fish for info, or have the pilot incriminate themselves. If they don't have anything, it will go away. If they do, they will send out a notice of proposed enforcement action, that is what starts the process. Prior to that, he will request your file and they have to give him all the info, you will then know exactly what evidence (or lack thereof) they have, you will know all the cards they hold. Then your lawyer will most likely want the informal conference with the Feds, I went though this. I didn't say a word, my $350/hour mouthpiece did all the talking. It was well worth the money, I'm sure glad I called him before I incriminated myself. I was thinking what's to lose by talking to them, I didn't do anything wrong. Don't think that way, get professonal help. It is a bummer shelling out that kind of money, it is a reality of this business. Don't lose sleep, these things are common and many times they evaporate into thin air. Play smart, good luck, and then you'll be giving this advice to some other pilot.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

If you are having a hard time finding your attorney and you get down to day nine, I recommend you contact the FSDO that is working your case and tell him that you plan on cooperating in the process but it will take a few more days to meet with your attorney. Ask what facts they have on you. If you do not the FSDO will assume non cooperation and charge ahead without you.

True story, Friend flying Checks doing the normal routine answered ATC 240 and keep climbing to 250. ATC not amused but did not push the issue. Turns out ATC "squealer tape" showed separation problem and ATC superviser in the morning called foul. PIC friend got your letter and did get an attorney who was to fax him copy of letter sent to FAA. Day 10 in afternoon, no fax from attorney and no answer to his numerous calls all day, he calls the FSDO to tell them his prediciment. The FSDO guy thanks him for calling and tells him the facts he has on him and tells him that he intends to put the dissappearing two year, bad frieght dog, bad, letter in his file. With his facts he was toast. His screw up. He keep a good attitude and said it looks as if I screwed up, in todays competative enviorment a violation would really harm me. FSDO knew this and with his clean previous record let him get by with a letter.

The above is not to say don,t get an attorney. I side on getting one. Just an odd example how a little honesty and humillity went a long way.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[ATCER]

FWIW I would get a lawyer... a separation error gets kicked upstairs to QA (Quality Assurance). The situation is reviewed and a decision is made... controller error or pilot error. If you got a letter there is a good chance that they are looking at pilot deviation as the cause of the error.

When we go upstairs to QA we ALWAYS go with our union rep in tow for protection.

I don't want to alarm you... it could be minor but I would get the protection of a good lawyer to cover your a** ...

Good Luck