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F15 Vs F16
- Thread starter B-J-J Fighter
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ivauir
SNIKT!
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2002
- Posts
- 1,476
I'm just a caveman ...
... but, don't go to UPT with the "I'm gonna fly a ?-??" attitude. Have an idea, but don't get too attached to it: while class ranking is important to getting your choice, timing is king. If any of these Centerline Thrust Theorists tell you otherwise they are full of hot air.
I can remember a time when the only fighters available were banked and the top guys were not interested. Listen to what your IPs have to offer - ask them about the pros and cons of each assignment. I will not BS you about how great it was flying the heavies - it is a fighter pilot's AF, as a heavy pilot you are just living in it. Still, I had some great experiences and did some things the average zipper suited sun god doesn't even know exist.
No matter what you do for Uncle Sam choose something you couldn't do on the outside. You can fly airplanes with sleeping room, a head, an oven and a coffee maker when you are an old man. Have an adventure while you are young.
As far as I know we've never lost a HVAA whenever there was any dedicated HVAA CAP of any kind. Nor have we lost a HVAA since Vietnam, so your quote is a little misleading - the same can be said of the viper, or any other modern Air to Air capable fighter.
There was an instance when an Eagle saved the day AFTER they let a leaker get through. We got lucky we didn't lose that HVAA to cumulo granite as the executed the Vulcan Death Dive at night, no FLIR, no Noggs, no SA. Personnally I was happy to have ANY dedicated goalie CAP.
... but, don't go to UPT with the "I'm gonna fly a ?-??" attitude. Have an idea, but don't get too attached to it: while class ranking is important to getting your choice, timing is king. If any of these Centerline Thrust Theorists tell you otherwise they are full of hot air.
I can remember a time when the only fighters available were banked and the top guys were not interested. Listen to what your IPs have to offer - ask them about the pros and cons of each assignment. I will not BS you about how great it was flying the heavies - it is a fighter pilot's AF, as a heavy pilot you are just living in it. Still, I had some great experiences and did some things the average zipper suited sun god doesn't even know exist.No matter what you do for Uncle Sam choose something you couldn't do on the outside. You can fly airplanes with sleeping room, a head, an oven and a coffee maker when you are an old man. Have an adventure while you are young.
As far as I know we've never lost a HVAA whenever there was any dedicated HVAA CAP of any kind. Nor have we lost a HVAA since Vietnam, so your quote is a little misleading - the same can be said of the viper, or any other modern Air to Air capable fighter.
There was an instance when an Eagle saved the day AFTER they let a leaker get through. We got lucky we didn't lose that HVAA to cumulo granite as the executed the Vulcan Death Dive at night, no FLIR, no Noggs, no SA. Personnally I was happy to have ANY dedicated goalie CAP.
Oh Please!
Not to get into the "who's patch is worth more" fight. Let's not get too involved in bashing PW220 F-16s at Luke.
Only 4 of the crashes were engine related.
a) 1 Midair during BFM
b) Pilot signing off an electrical RED X while cross-country to Beale, result no power, no hook, no cable, no brakes, depart the runway and over Northern Ave.
c) Landing Gear non-deploy and they ran out of gas, controlled ejection
And having worked with the -229 there is a big difference in reliability over the -220s.
Not to get into the "who's patch is worth more" fight. Let's not get too involved in bashing PW220 F-16s at Luke.
Only 4 of the crashes were engine related.
a) 1 Midair during BFM
b) Pilot signing off an electrical RED X while cross-country to Beale, result no power, no hook, no cable, no brakes, depart the runway and over Northern Ave.
c) Landing Gear non-deploy and they ran out of gas, controlled ejection
And having worked with the -229 there is a big difference in reliability over the -220s.
WOW!!!
You fighter guys are great to read.........what a crack up......oops....hold on I'm on a trip in the herc...room service is here.....be right back....
Hmm, it's salmon tonight.......
Ok, sorry, where was I....oh, reading you guys is better than watching the Comedy channel....anyways, coming from a Herc guy, both planes (-15, and -16) seem to be pretty cool with some great missions. I have friends flying both......though, there is still something about the ol' Tomcat taking off....hmmm........
Oh, nice thing about flying slow......our duty day runs out too soon to really go anywhere too fast....many nice stops along the way......
So, was the debate decided....what's better, a F-15, F-16, KC-135, B-1, C-9, C-21, C-130, F-14, F-18, F-22, P-3, S-3, A-6, B-52, C-141......hmm, I think just having my wings......
You fighter guys are great to read.........what a crack up......oops....hold on I'm on a trip in the herc...room service is here.....be right back....
Hmm, it's salmon tonight.......
Ok, sorry, where was I....oh, reading you guys is better than watching the Comedy channel....anyways, coming from a Herc guy, both planes (-15, and -16) seem to be pretty cool with some great missions. I have friends flying both......though, there is still something about the ol' Tomcat taking off....hmmm........
Oh, nice thing about flying slow......our duty day runs out too soon to really go anywhere too fast....many nice stops along the way......
So, was the debate decided....what's better, a F-15, F-16, KC-135, B-1, C-9, C-21, C-130, F-14, F-18, F-22, P-3, S-3, A-6, B-52, C-141......hmm, I think just having my wings......
viper -vs- eagle
The mighty Strike Eagle fitted w/229's has 58,069 lbs of thrust. If it was ever flown clean (no CFT's) it would rage over any viper including block 50's and 60's. Reference Seoul and Singapore Airshows. A clean F15E dominated the Rafale, Euro Fighter and some ruskie thrust vector POS (SU35?).
The air to ground capability is substantial with a max loadout of 81K. That is more iron than a 4 ship of vipers carry.
F-15E TFR- 100 ft at 600+ knots, with a free A/A radar.
Viper TFR - YGBSM, its called Medium Altitude LANTIRN OPS
As far as air to air, the APG 70 is second only to the V2. A viper is dead before the "declare" call is made since it can not ID.
The Korean version of the Strike Eagle will be awesome. GE 129's and V1.
The mighty Strike Eagle fitted w/229's has 58,069 lbs of thrust. If it was ever flown clean (no CFT's) it would rage over any viper including block 50's and 60's. Reference Seoul and Singapore Airshows. A clean F15E dominated the Rafale, Euro Fighter and some ruskie thrust vector POS (SU35?).
The air to ground capability is substantial with a max loadout of 81K. That is more iron than a 4 ship of vipers carry.
F-15E TFR- 100 ft at 600+ knots, with a free A/A radar.
Viper TFR - YGBSM, its called Medium Altitude LANTIRN OPS
As far as air to air, the APG 70 is second only to the V2. A viper is dead before the "declare" call is made since it can not ID.
The Korean version of the Strike Eagle will be awesome. GE 129's and V1.
av8instyle
Above Average Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 427
I'll have what he's having!
So much for the beauty of a WUS, err, I mean a WSO checking 6 4 U.
Thanks, but I'll keep my Viper.
Dude, you're smokin' crack if you think your beagle can out turn a Viper. It has its advantages, but that is NOT one of them. BFM is, sorry to say, exclusive to the Viper in this case. With FULL internal fuel, 2 A-9's, and load of bullets the F-16C Bk 30 BM weighs in at just under 25,000 lbs. Engine puts out 28,000 lbs thrust. At 10k or less I will be able to pull 9G's until I run out of fuel or you die. The latter will most likely occur.
I'd like to see it when you actually use that TFR at 100 feet. It'll be a cold day in he!! when that happens. The TFR was in some Vipers previous and was deactivated because it wasn't gonna be used.
But not quite what a B-52/B-1 will carry. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the relevance. A Viper has a specific A-G job and does it better than any other fighter. I don't think anyone will sign off on a lone Beagle as opposed to a four ship of Vipers anyway.
Dude, last I checked you have the same missles we do, and our limit is not our radar when it comes to A-A employment. And, oh by the way, vipers DO have two ID modes. One currently fielded, and one (better one) on the way VERY SOON.
I just got back from Maple Flag. The OCA was split 33/33/33 Eagles/Rhinos/Vipers. On FOUR occassions an entire 4 ship of OCA was wiped out on the initial push. All four times they were unaware. Can you guess which aircraft it was ALL FOUR TIMES? Yep, you guessed it - the ultra-high SA, mightier than thou, Sort-to-the-mort, Salami receiving EAGLES!
So much for the beauty of a WUS, err, I mean a WSO checking 6 4 U.
Thanks, but I'll keep my Viper.
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
Re: I'll have what he's having!
Sorry, my old cranium friend, but I'm afraid you're the one who's riding a little bit high on your G-FM horse in this case. This was actually done by the 422 TES back in 96 or 97 while I was a maintainer at Nellis -- BFM between a -229 powered F-15E with no CFTs or LANTIRN pods and a -129 powered Viper. Guess what -- the Eagle could not only keep up, but it out G-FMd the Viper a few times, too.
The full internal gas F-15E with no external sh-t on it weighs in just under 50K. The 229 puts out 29,000 lbs, and we've got two of 'em. Do the math.
Better yet, check out the video of the airshow demo that Boeing did with just such a configured F-15E.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/f-15k/video/lb3123.mpg
av8instyle said:
Sorry, my old cranium friend, but I'm afraid you're the one who's riding a little bit high on your G-FM horse in this case. This was actually done by the 422 TES back in 96 or 97 while I was a maintainer at Nellis -- BFM between a -229 powered F-15E with no CFTs or LANTIRN pods and a -129 powered Viper. Guess what -- the Eagle could not only keep up, but it out G-FMd the Viper a few times, too.
The full internal gas F-15E with no external sh-t on it weighs in just under 50K. The 229 puts out 29,000 lbs, and we've got two of 'em. Do the math.
Better yet, check out the video of the airshow demo that Boeing did with just such a configured F-15E.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/f15/f-15k/video/lb3123.mpg
Last edited:
AlbieF15
F15 Ret/FDX/InterviewPrep
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 1,764
KIO...
Dudes,
With all due respect, this is starting to sound like a junior high argument over Fords verses Chevys, the yankees verses the Sox, etc. etc.
A late model block Viper is BFM machine. Works best if clean, but not too terrible even dirtied up a bit. Lots of thrust, hard to see, and a G-limiter mean a guy can pull without fear (usually) of hurting jet as he seeks max performance. However...most Vipers will be doing SEAD or OCA/bomb dropping on the push, although they have a superior self protection capability. And yes...they can also do OCA/DCA without any other help if required.
F15Es are superior platforms for dropping lots of weapons, smart or otherwise. Great radar, great Lantirn, and some great crews. Yes....drop the stores and the CFTs and you've got a hell of a BFM jet. You also don't have the premier OCA jet anymore...you've got an overly built 2 seat F15D. The jet was built for OCA...without the extra gas/stores/weapons there was no reason to buy them. We had some good A/A fighters, and we had a great multirole fighter...but we needed more OCA punch so the strike Eagle was born.
F15Cs are getting old. The thrust to weight ain't what a block 50 has. However...in the hands of the right guy its still a great BFM machine--against anyone. Great tube/lots of missiles/good training will hopefully mean about 99% of the BFM discussion is moot. However...Eagle drivers will always push to be the very best BFM'ers at the merge they can be--it is the yardstick in the community. Due to the single mission doctine/training, more than likely F15Cs will be fragged at the lead OCA/DCA air to air forces in the package...at least until the F22 shows up and makes this thread even more meaningless (as if that is possible).
Last I checked...we were all on the same team. Rivalry is good--brings out the best in us...but this is getting sophmoric. Don't measure yourself by the last 350 hour flight lead you gunned....and don't lose sight of the fact the pilot is what you fight, defeat, and ultimately kill. The plane is just the ride to the fight....
Now go to your respective vaults and study.....
Albie
Dudes,
With all due respect, this is starting to sound like a junior high argument over Fords verses Chevys, the yankees verses the Sox, etc. etc.
A late model block Viper is BFM machine. Works best if clean, but not too terrible even dirtied up a bit. Lots of thrust, hard to see, and a G-limiter mean a guy can pull without fear (usually) of hurting jet as he seeks max performance. However...most Vipers will be doing SEAD or OCA/bomb dropping on the push, although they have a superior self protection capability. And yes...they can also do OCA/DCA without any other help if required.
F15Es are superior platforms for dropping lots of weapons, smart or otherwise. Great radar, great Lantirn, and some great crews. Yes....drop the stores and the CFTs and you've got a hell of a BFM jet. You also don't have the premier OCA jet anymore...you've got an overly built 2 seat F15D. The jet was built for OCA...without the extra gas/stores/weapons there was no reason to buy them. We had some good A/A fighters, and we had a great multirole fighter...but we needed more OCA punch so the strike Eagle was born.
F15Cs are getting old. The thrust to weight ain't what a block 50 has. However...in the hands of the right guy its still a great BFM machine--against anyone. Great tube/lots of missiles/good training will hopefully mean about 99% of the BFM discussion is moot. However...Eagle drivers will always push to be the very best BFM'ers at the merge they can be--it is the yardstick in the community. Due to the single mission doctine/training, more than likely F15Cs will be fragged at the lead OCA/DCA air to air forces in the package...at least until the F22 shows up and makes this thread even more meaningless (as if that is possible).
Last I checked...we were all on the same team. Rivalry is good--brings out the best in us...but this is getting sophmoric. Don't measure yourself by the last 350 hour flight lead you gunned....and don't lose sight of the fact the pilot is what you fight, defeat, and ultimately kill. The plane is just the ride to the fight....
Now go to your respective vaults and study.....
Albie
TFR in the Eagle
LOWAT cat 3 at Nellis. VLC (100') on flat terrain (egress to the farms) 1.21 Mach and accelerating with pods and CFT's. It is on video with out a flyup. The 422 has done it. Supersonic is not recommended with TFR you get an airspeed caution because it cannot program flyups fast enough (should be a change with an upgrade in the future), but not a prob with flat terrain. Although I am sure it was auto TF as opposed to manual.
LOWAT cat 3 at Nellis. VLC (100') on flat terrain (egress to the farms) 1.21 Mach and accelerating with pods and CFT's. It is on video with out a flyup. The 422 has done it. Supersonic is not recommended with TFR you get an airspeed caution because it cannot program flyups fast enough (should be a change with an upgrade in the future), but not a prob with flat terrain. Although I am sure it was auto TF as opposed to manual.
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