F/O flying on pax legs

[English]

1. blast off VFR in So Cal during a TOA - LGB hop: violation bait!

Obviously, I'm clueless. What's wrong with going VFR all of 5 miles, TOA-LGB, in VMC conditions?

 

[English]

7. blasting off without an alternate 135 - and without any idea that it's required no matter what.

Um....try again.

 

[FracCapt]

Folks: From my short experience in 121 and 135/91

That says it all. You admonish the 135/91 crews, but sing the praises of the 121 crews....and you have experienced all this in your vast aviation career thus far. Go ahead and preach to us how all of us in the 135/91 world are cowboys, unsafe, and don't know the regs....and how great you are because you're a 121 guy. Go ahead.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

shut up AZ

or as the phrase goes "Think before you speak"

 

[CapnVegetto]

Folks: From my short experience in 121 and 135/91 - it's not the operations that are shady. Good equipment, nice staff, hard working maintenance teams - it's not the opertion. It's the second rate flying! Lack of SOPs, lack of training (FS / SimuFlite), and lack of experience - all contribute to shady cockpit ops. I'm not Maverick - but I have yet to fly with some people outside of 121 who have a dang clue in the airplane. Yes - the clueless ones exist in 121 - oh yes they do! But the SOPs, training, and overall experience (yes, I know of the 500 hours guys) typically lead to safe, efficient cockpit ops. Here are some real life examples from numerous first hand sources:


1. blast off VFR in So Cal during a TOA - LGB hop: violation bait!

2. blast off without a clue as to takeoff data, second segment, DP, etc!

3. 490...because we can.

4. paperwork - a disaster.

5. approach to mins - no brief, no idea how to brief, no idea what to brief.

6. guys leaving the cockpit to go take a nap in back - nice.

7. blasting off without an alternate 135 - and without any idea that it's required no matter what.

8. taxiing really fast to the runway - only to wait for release (and the taxi check takes a few min. anyways, and the pax are tossed around the back) - that shows complete lack of awareness.

9. just overall inefficient!

Of course - this all happens in 121, 135, 91. But it seems standard in the 135/91 world from my own experience and first hand stories of colleagues. You get all this crap in 121...but it's far and few between and typically corrected in recurrent. Alright - let the tomato tossing begin.

AZT

Who in the hell did you work for?

I could argue that my limited 121 experience was exactly the opposite of yours. I've never flown with worse pilots than I did at the airlines. I had never seen such a lack of knowledge regarding the airplane being flown, flight planning, fuel planning, and general basic knowledge. Most of the guys I met couldn't take a pi$$ without an explicit checklist procedure on how to hold their di-k.

But.....my argument to that point would be as stupid as yours. Sure, I met some dumba$$es, so did you. I can't assume it's that way everywhere....that would be as stupid as I claim that some of these guys were.

I find most of your numbered arguments to be dumb. What's wrong with a short VFR leg if it's clear and a million? Answer: NOTHING. If I'm taking off of a 10,000 foot runway on a Kansas plain in a Citation 1,000 lbs under max gross weight with no obsticles in the way and it's 70 degrees, why the hell do I need to compute takeoff data? I know I'm going to need about 2,500 feet of runway, so I compute Vspeeds, T/O power, and do a quick abbreviated briefing. Why? Because I KNOW MY AIRPLANE. I don't need a dispatch release to tell me I need about 1,400 lbs of fuel to fly for about an hour, takeoff to touchdown. That's my JOB. 490...why not? If it saves fuel, is a better ride? Give me one good reason why not? I hear Gulfstreams at 450 and 470 all the time. Please explain to me what they are doing wrong. Paperwork: I don't use releases. I'd rather do it myself, because then I know it's going to be done right. Don't even ask me how many releases I got at the airline that was f-cked up. Leaving the cockpit to nap in the back? As opposed to napping up front like in the CRJ? Ask any CRJ pilot what the 'overhead panel scan' is. 135 alternate required no matter what? I suppose all those alternate minimums and requirements that we have to memorize are just for show? Where in the hell did you get that idea? Just overall inefficient huh? You know how many 2 hour delays I took at ORD for stupid crap like 1 panel light not working, door on the trash recepticle broken, waiting for a late release, bags, gate hold, slow agents, airstart, etc. You call that efficiency??

C'mon dude, use your head. 121 is not God. Neither is 91 and 135. Everything has got its problems. Bad pilots, bad employees, whatever, you're going to find it everywhere. You just happen to be one of the guys that worked for a really bad one, and got a terrible experience. Likewise, I worked for a $hitty airline, and got a $hitty experience. Nothing is perfect, one way is NOT better than the other, we could sit here and argue this all day, until we're blue in the face. I, for one, would rather go play golf. C'ya!

 

[English]

And hey, AZ typed, I'm pretty sure I have more 121 experience that you (3 airlines). I've run into more cowboys at your elevated-status 121 carriers than I ever have at 135 operators.

 

[HMR]

AZ- Other than #7 I can relate to the items you listed. It doesn't matter whether it's 91/121/135. It's the pilot, not the operation, who make these choices.

CapnVegetto- You find most of the "numbered arguments to be dumb"? I think most of them are excellent.

1. TOA-LGB VFR? No thanks. That's probably one of the most dangerous slices of airspace in SoCal. I've had more close calls there as an instructor and later as a King Air pilot than I care to remember. I'm pretty familiar with that area and going VFR gives me the willies. Maybe I'm just a wuss... but I'll live to be an old wuss.

2. "blast off without a clue as to takeoff data, second segment, DP, etc" I don't get too uptight about runway req'ts on 10,000', sea-level runways when it's 10C. But "second segment, DP, etc" is ALWAYS important.

3. "490...because we can" My plane tops out at 450. There are few times a pilot can get it there. There are VERY few times the book says it can go there. Yet I've seen guys fly along at .65 with the nose pointed up 5 degrees in level cruise thinking they're doing something worthwhile.

4. The guys with messy paperwork usually have a messy car, stinky house, fly with cookie crumbs in their lap, are always spilling coffee on the FMS...

5. "approach to mins - no brief, no idea how to brief, no idea what to brief." Survived it, have the twitch to prove it. I've had partners at FSI that couldn't brief an approach with the sim stopped. How do these guys get through the cracks?

6. "guys leaving the cockpit to go take a nap in back" I hear pilots brag about it.

7.

8 & 9- I'm tired of typing.

BTW- If a company does 364 PT91 flights and 1 PT135 flight each year... you're still flying 135 on-demand.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

3. 490...because we can.

I'm sorry, this one is just so open.

Wasn't it a 121 crew on a deadhead in an RJ that just wanted to see how high it would go.

I really wish everyone would use facts to support their opinions.

Ace

 

[AZ Typed]

That says it all. You admonish the 135/91 crews, but sing the praises of the 121 crews....and you have experienced all this in your vast aviation career thus far. Go ahead and preach to us how all of us in the 135/91 world are cowboys, unsafe, and don't know the regs....and how great you are because you're a 121 guy. Go ahead.

Oh boy...I'm not a 121 guy. I'm 91/135 now.

 

[AZ Typed]

AZ- Other than #7 I can relate to the items you listed. It doesn't matter whether it's 91/121/135. It's the pilot, not the operation, who make these choices.

CapnVegetto- You find most of the "numbered arguments to be dumb"? I think most of them are excellent.

1. TOA-LGB VFR? No thanks. That's probably one of the most dangerous slices of airspace in SoCal. I've had more close calls there as an instructor and later as a King Air pilot than I care to remember. I'm pretty familiar with that area and going VFR gives me the willies. Maybe I'm just a wuss... but I'll live to be an old wuss.

EXACTLY

2. "blast off without a clue as to takeoff data, second segment, DP, etc" I don't get too uptight about runway req'ts on 10,000', sea-level runways when it's 10C. But "second segment, DP, etc" is ALWAYS important.

NO KIDDING that 10,000 in Kansas is no big deal. It's the CO mountains that I see this crap happening in. Come on...I know most of you think I'm a moron, and maybe I am...but common sense does prevail in the take off data arguement - especially at 7,000 MSL with DA 9500.


3. "490...because we can" My plane tops out at 450. There are few times a pilot can get it there. There are VERY few times the book says it can go there. Yet I've seen guys fly along at .65 with the nose pointed up 5 degrees in level cruise thinking they're doing something worthwhile.

again...EXACTLY NOT TO MENTION: at 49,000 you have 1/10 the pressure at sea level - so you're practically in space. Have fun on the rapid decomp!!!

4. The guys with messy paperwork usually have a messy car, stinky house, fly with cookie crumbs in their lap, are always spilling coffee on the FMS...

SO RIGHT ON.

5. "approach to mins - no brief, no idea how to brief, no idea what to brief." Survived it, have the twitch to prove it. I've had partners at FSI that couldn't brief an approach with the sim stopped. How do these guys get through the cracks?

again...SO RIGHT ON


6. "guys leaving the cockpit to go take a nap in back" I hear pilots brag about it.

and again...SO RIGHT ON

7.

8 & 9- I'm tired of typing.

ME TOO

BTW- If a company does 364 PT91 flights and 1 PT135 flight each year... you're still flying 135 on-demand.

Alright - our ops specs say alternates at all times. I'm new to 135 so I thought it was required no matter what on a 135 flight - call me crazy.

Thanks Folks!

 

[AZ Typed]

I'm sorry, this one is just so open.

Wasn't it a 121 crew on a deadhead in an RJ that just wanted to see how high it would go.

I really wish everyone would use facts to support their opinions.

Ace

Good Point. But still stupid don't you agree?

 

[some_dude]

AZ, many of the issues you are describing are usually the result of someone being lazy and/or sloppy.

If *you* show that you are going to be professional, most pilots will start being more professional as well, if only so they don't look bad.

No takeoff data? Whose fault is that? If you are the PNF, *you* should compute it automatically, whether asked for or not. If you are the PF, *you* should ask for it. If the other pilot doesn't want to do it, tell them you are uncomfortable unless it is done. If they still refuse, do it yourself and start looking for another job after the trip.

No approach briefing? Obviously you are not the PF, or *you* would have given a briefing, right? So maybe you need to remind the PF? If something isn't covered in the briefing, ask a question.

You don't have to be self-righteous or a jerk about any of this. Simply act professional and lead by example.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Good Point. But still stupid don't you agree?

No, not always. I fly a GV and we go to 470 / 490 all the time. If you are going to worry about something, why don't you try using science. How many accidents have been caused (or made worse) by being at 490 as opposed to 410? None! Stats can be very usefull, they make you not pull concerns out of your rear. Look at where most accidents happen, then focus your worries on making that phase of flight safer. Many times 490 could be SAFER than 410 (wx, traffic spacing, etc.) Everyone has the right to an opinion, I just like the ones that are backed up by facts.

Ps: I am also asuming (considering your concerns about rappid decompression) that you always have your mask on and sealed above 350, right?

Ace

 

[cxcap]

i'm pretty sure that the airlines dont let the F/O fly while pax are on board. the F/O is mainly there to raise and lower the gear/flaps, talk on the radio, navigate, and basically do whatever else the captain orders him to do (get coffee, fill out paperwork, etc). if the FO is lucky he may get to fly the plane on a ferry flight if the captain lets him.

 

[Sgt. Hartman]

i'm pretty sure that the airlines dont let the F/O fly while pax are on board. the F/O is mainly there to raise and lower the gear/flaps, talk on the radio, navigate, and basically do whatever else the captain orders him to do (get coffee, fill out paperwork, etc). if the FO is lucky he may get to fly the plane on a ferry flight if the captain lets him.

LOL.....That oughtta attract some HEATED discussion

 

[CarjCapt]

i'm pretty sure that the airlines dont let the F/O fly while pax are on board. the F/O is mainly there to raise and lower the gear/flaps, talk on the radio, navigate, and basically do whatever else the captain orders him to do (get coffee, fill out paperwork, etc). if the FO is lucky he may get to fly the plane on a ferry flight if the captain lets him.

Absolute Flame Bait....cxcap obviously is from another world/planet/universe

 

[100LL... Again!]

It mostly boils down to corporate culture and oversight.

A crappy 121 operator will have crappier pilots than a shipshape 135 operator.

That said, on average, most 121 operators are more rigidly administrated, so therefore the perception (and a fair perception it is) is that 121 pilots are safer.

The reality is that 121 pilots are not better, just more closely watched (on average).

 

[AZ Typed]

No, not always. I fly a GV and we go to 470 / 490 all the time. If you are going to worry about something, why don't you try using science. How many accidents have been caused (or made worse) by being at 490 as opposed to 410? None! Stats can be very usefull, they make you not pull concerns out of your rear. Look at where most accidents happen, then focus your worries on making that phase of flight safer. Many times 490 could be SAFER than 410 (wx, traffic spacing, etc.) Everyone has the right to an opinion, I just like the ones that are backed up by facts.

Ps: I am also asuming (considering your concerns about rappid decompression) that you always have your mask on and sealed above 350, right?

Ace

Do you always response with such candor? Fun to fly with too, I'll bet.

eeeesh

 

[CaSyndrm]

i'm pretty sure that the airlines dont let the F/O fly while pax are on board. the F/O is mainly there to raise and lower the gear/flaps, talk on the radio, navigate, and basically do whatever else the captain orders him to do (get coffee, fill out paperwork, etc). if the FO is lucky he may get to fly the plane on a ferry flight if the captain lets him.

Dumba$$

 

[CaSyndrm]

And hey, AZ typed, I'm pretty sure I have more 121 experience that you (3 airlines). I've run into more cowboys at your elevated-status 121 carriers than I ever have at 135 operators.

I am one of those cowboys but am able to follow the rules at whatever company I work for and get along. This whole discussion is worthless if we all look at the experience levels of the people arguing. It's like the apples arguing with the oranges. Obviously the people that have flown more than a few years have no respect for the arguments in this thread and the others just don't get it.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Do you always response with such candor? Fun to fly with too, I'll bet.

eeeesh

Oops, I forgot, this is supposed to be playful banter. My bad.

I will infer from your last post that you don't take any issue with mine. I really don't mean to be an a$$, I just worry that someone with less time than me or CAsyn might read one of these asinine posts and actually believe them. But now that I think of it, maybe all you guys should start flying down with the airliners so I can get more directs.

Ace

 

[HawkerF/O]

490...why not? If it saves fuel, is a better ride? Give me one good reason why not? I hear Gulfstreams at 450 and 470 all the time. Please
explain to me what they are doing wrong.

Because at 490 if you loose the cabin you and everyone in the airplane is D E A D! And I know you don't sit the with your mask on. Let the cabin go at 490 and you'll never know it; your chin will hit your chest about the same time you go to reach for your quick don mask.

 

[Publishers]

For the most part, we always operated as co-captains with equally qualified personnel and they changed seats with legs. That said, if we were using a contractor or an FO who was a captain in a smaller aircraft as F/O, then the captain was to fly the passenger legs and his discretion on deadhead legs.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Because at 490 if you loose the cabin you and everyone in the airplane is D E A D! And I know you don't sit the with your mask on. Let the cabin go at 490 and you'll never know it; your chin will hit your chest about the same time you go to reach for your quick don mask.

Well, if your fuel tank catches on fire, then everyone in D E A D too. So should none of us fly airplanes that require fuel? We should all fly gliders!

You know, come to think of it, how many crashes have occured because people lost control of the airplane in IFR? New rule required, VFR FLIGHT ONLY IS ALLOWED!

The point is, this sort of thing goes on all the time, you can't outlaw driving because someone somewhere crashes, you can't outlaw golf if someone gets hit in the head with golf ball. That's just common sense. Ace has already said it, he's at 470 and 490 all the time. By your logic, he should be dead.

Just use a little sense man. It happens all the time, and it's OK.

Besides, I've never been above 450.

 

[CaSyndrm]

Because at 490 if you loose the cabin you and everyone in the airplane is D E A D! And I know you don't sit the with your mask on. Let the cabin go at 490 and you'll never know it; your chin will hit your chest about the same time you go to reach for your quick don mask.

You obviously don't know why those altitudes are certified and what systems have been created to protect pax and crew if something does go wrong. I'm not being paid to be your instructor however so let's just say you are wrong.

 

[AZ Typed]

I see why I've left aviation for the most part. This all reaffirms my choice to fly 135 here and there after years of abuse at all levels and this kinds of egotistical crap. It's impossible to have a worthwhile discussion on these boards.

AZT out

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Because at 490 if you loose the cabin you and everyone in the airplane is D E A D! And I know you don't sit the with your mask on. Let the cabin go at 490 and you'll never know it; your chin will hit your chest about the same time you go to reach for your quick don mask.

OH MY GOD you're an idiot!

I really hope you're not a pilot because it would be an embarrassment to all the other ones out there who know their a$$ from a hole in the ground.

Don't reply. Just shut up and let the real pilots chat.

Ace

 

[OleGuy]

i'm pretty sure that the airlines dont let the F/O fly while pax are on board. the F/O is mainly there to raise and lower the gear/flaps, talk on the radio, navigate, and basically do whatever else the captain orders him to do (get coffee, fill out paperwork, etc). if the FO is lucky he may get to fly the plane on a ferry flight if the captain lets him.

You can tell cxcap's knowledge by his experience numbers. FYI most 121 pilots fly every other leg, depending on the Capt experience level. You would be surprised what you can learn from watching someone else's performance. And most of the 121 f/o's are in the right seat due to senority rather than ability.( 15-20 years there) And yes, they fly as smooth as anyone else.

As for this thread, I would not work for an operation that, after say 100 hrs, felt that I could not fly the aircraft as well as anyone else.