F-16s buzz ASA?

[CrewDawg]

My hope is that they don't mistake the CRJ for a Hind and shoot it down, then cover the whole thing up and blame it on some poor sob AWACS guy.

Classy...


What's even more sad is that this is front page news...while an Osprey crashes in Afghanistan, killing 2 servicemen, and it's on the third page of that same paper! WTF!

 

[ILS8L]

Classy...


What's even more sad is that this is front page news...while an Osprey crashes in Afghanistan, killing 2 servicemen, and it's on the third page of that same paper! WTF!

Maybe a history lesson is in order. This day in history 1994.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

 

[CrewDawg]

Maybe a history lesson is in order. This day in history 1994.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

No lesson is needed, I am intimately aware of the details of this case. We have a lesson on it during training. There were a lot of links broken in that chain of events, not just ones by the pilots/AWACS.

I'm just not a big fan of making light of a unfortunate fratricide that killed 26 servicemen! I think most of us are more scared of a frat than dying.

 

[Full of LUV]

History....

True our climb and decent rates don't help that out (inside or outside a MOA). Most fighter guys have never worked with or know much about TCAS. We could be well within our airspace but with our climb/descent rates can cause TCAS to go off on an airliner outside the area and us both be legal.

The military could do a much better job in instructing it's tactical pilots on how TCAS works. This seems to happen every so often.
I remember an incident in the 90's, TWA I believe, where the jet was descending into JFK and an unfortunate TCAS alert due to two F16's that joined up caused the pilot to overreact and caused some injuries on the plane.
A lot of military pilots don't seek the airlines because they have seen about a decade of carnage in the 121 world and seek the relative predictability of the govm't job. There was a time that AIRINC said get out at 18 years and go to 121 ops, now at 18 years, an 05 pilot will easily be making well over the equivelent of $110K-$150K depending on where they live, and have a pension to boot. Who would leave that to begin as a regional pilot and hope that the majors hire again in time for you to ever make it to the left seat?
Ironically, some leave at around 11 years (earliest that you can depart with flight school involved), but many of them have decided that they have limited upward potential in the military.

 

[CrewDawg]

The military could do a much better job in instructing it's tactical pilots on how TCAS works. This seems to happen every so often.
I remember an incident in the 90's, TWA I believe, where the jet was descending into JFK and an unfortunate TCAS alert due to two F16's that joined up caused the pilot to overreact and caused some injuries on the plane.

They could, but it's like anything else. If it's all you know then it seems normal. Having 100 knots of closure at 1 mile on a rejoin is not uncommon to us....doing that to a TCAS equipped aircraft may not work out so well. During a normal training mission we have the potential to get some pretty good climb rates. So if it sets off a TCAS going over the area, we really can't help that. Our airspace is so restricted as it is, we already have to tailor our training to conform to the rules we are given. Restricting it even more is doing an injustice to the tax payer (in wasted training and gas).

Just like that incident down in the BMGR range in Arizona. When an F-16 rejoined on a PC-12 to get an N number. That dude cried all over the radio about how a Viper was 10 feet off his wing. That viper never got within 500 feet (defined as well clear by the FAA). But to that civilian, who has probably never seen a plane closer than a mile, that 500 feet probably seemed like 10 feet confused.

Were the guys rejoining on the airliner or each other, in that TWA incident?

A lot of military pilots don't seek the airlines because they have seen about a decade of carnage in the 121 world and seek the relative predictability of the govm't job. There was a time that AIRINC said get out at 18 years and go to 121 ops, now at 18 years, an 05 pilot will easily be making well over the equivelent of $110K-$150K depending on where they live, and have a pension to boot. Who would leave that to begin as a regional pilot and hope that the majors hire again in time for you to ever make it to the left seat?

Very true. I was talking about a decent amount of them that have zero desire to fly outside of the military, even when the times were good. Not because they think it's beneath them just that it doesn't spark their interest.

 

[Tom_Bodett]

Great job by the crew! This could have easily been quit a different story if they didn't have grade A situational awareness!

 

[Beaver79]

"As far as the roles reversed comment. It's apples to oranges. Until you have lead a 4vX opposed surface attack ride, where 1 person is in charge of 3 other jets, while running a Radar/Targeting Pod/HMCS, with multiple simulated surface to air missiles (SAMs), fighting at least 2 adversary aircraft, in MOA's that altitude limits change daily, then I suggest you hold your comments to yourself."

With the greatest respect for our very much appreciated military, I really must object. There are rules everyone has to obey as far as safety is concerned. I am not qualified to translate the statement quoted, however I would trust that this incident will be fully investigated to determine what measures may need to be taken to prevent a similar event in the future.

Human error is natural, and learning from experience is vital.

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. In a word - severe task saturation. Just "flying" the airplane has nothing to do with it. It's kind of information overload and perhaps they were so focused on the mission, that they didn't perceive something may or may not have been wrong. You fly an airplane; they operate a complex weapons system with a multitude of complex sensors, weapons, and task loading where flying is part of the total equation.

 

[CrewDawg]

There are rules everyone has to obey as far as safety is concerned. I am not qualified to translate the statement quoted, however I would trust that this incident will be fully investigated to determine what measures may need to be taken to prevent a similar event in the future.

I am by no means making excuses for this incident. I am simply stating, as Beaver was getting at....it's not just, what we call admin. (t/o, lnd, instruments, refueling), the basic stuff we are just expected to know. It's the actual employment of the weapons systems that makes it so task saturating. So unfortunately when one gets tasked saturated to a certain point, things start dropping out. Now I don't know the full details so I will refrain from commenting on this specific event. However, I have no doubt that they would not intentionally go out of the area.

Human error is natural, and learning from experience is vital.

On this, we are in total agreement.

 

[Mud Eagle]

There was a time that AIRINC said get out at 18 years and go to 121 ops, now at 18 years, an 05 pilot will easily be making well over the equivelent of $110K-$150K depending on where they live, and have a pension to boot.

I saw a spreadsheet circa 2000 that showed a O-5 who separated at 17 years and went to the "average" major airline would, by age 60, earn more than $1 million *more* in lifetime earnings than the guy who stayed 3 more years until retirement and then went to the majors at age 42.

Pretty eye-opening data to me as a young guy in the military flying community.

Unfortunately, it's nowhere near that today. In fact, the best case scenario major job is a financial equal to the guy who stays in and starts collecting retirement checks at 42.

 

[GuinessGuy]

CrewDawg.....You"re pissing up a rope with these Aclowns.............