F-117: 2 Year Life Expectancy

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

Not that was much CAS to control, what with the A-10s gone, and the active duty F-16s too good to be bothered with such a minor and disgusting mission.

Not only are there Gunships in each AOR (Afghan/Iraq), but there's an additional 14 U-boats being manufactured. Besides, in my short career, I've never met an F-16 pilot who thought of CAS as a "minor" and "disgusting" mission. Most take pride in being able to provide dudes on the ground the help they need, albeit not as good as Gunships, but no one's perfect :beer:

 

[JimNtexas]

... I've never met an F-16 pilot who thought of CAS as a "minor" and "disgusting" mission. Most take pride in being able to provide dudes on the ground the help they need, albeit not as good as Gunships, but no one's perfect :beer:

Well, I think the attitude towards CAS may have changed, I certainly hope so. Part of my job at Fort Hood was to try an presuade fighter units to come fly CAS with us, we had to have it for currency. Only the guard F-16 units would come, because at that time the active F-16 forces (at least the ones within a reasonable distance of Fort Hood) did not have a CAS mission, or so they said. We got the Cagin Milita to come a few times with their OA-10s, but Lousiana to Fort Hood was a major cross country for them.

Certainly no matter who showed up, we had nothing in the way of technology to help us control them.

But we took comfort in the notion that the B-2 pilots had gold plated round king size beds and Plasma screen TVs in their cockpit.

 

[Merlin'05]

AD SUPT Hopeful,

You are correct--along with much larger weapons. I was talking about stealth delivered 2000 lb LGBs. The last update I got on the JSF was they were trying to enlarge the two weapon bays to fit a GBU-32. Since LGBs are longer and have much larger fins, I have no idea if they would even be able to fit one in, even with an enlarged bay. I know for sure that you can pile them up on the wings, but that won't do much good on the first few nights when the IADS are still up.

JimNtexas,

I don't know what current ALOs have. I know Spec Ops has pretty good equipment. There was a Ranger Tabbed TACP in my old cadet squadron and it sounds like they have pretty good equipment as well.

I don't think the AF is trying to cast away the CAS mission as much as you think they are. Although there are many in the AF who don't care much for it, seeing the A-10C seems to counteract that idea somewhat. Its going to take at least 10 years for the JSF to completely take over the A-10s role. That's much longer than many thought the A-10 would serve in the AF any way.

I pushed people real hard about the JSF talking over the A-10 role every time I went to a JSF briefing. By the last briefing I went to, it sounded like they had a lot of people working real hard on making the JSF a good replacement for the A-10. I know that will make many people stop reading this and yell BLASPHEMY! It may very well be. And I would like to see a fly-off myself, but that's another story.



On a tangent, I read a paper a few months back about urban CAS. It was a joint paper by the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force, retired military members, and military analysts/think tanks. The goal was to study urban CAS in all its forms, understand the history, the requirements, and what worked best--from all the services--and make recommendations on were to go from there. Obviously Iraq took the forefront. I was surprised when I came to the conclusion. Based on all the factors, the joint report listed two weapons most useful for urban CAS. It wasn't the Navy F/A-18s or Marine Harriers. It wasn't the Air Force A-10s (which I thought was going to be the "winner" when I first saw the title), or F-16s, or Buffs. It was the AC-130 and Predator. Those two weapon systems consistently held the highest marks by the Army and Marines in urban combat for time over station, quickest response times, least collateral damage, best accuracy, most damage to the enemy, and least friendly casualties (if I remember correctly 0 for the predator).

Of course you can't use these aircraft in ALL situations, and other aircraft are more useful for enemy positions in the open--especially concentrated positions--but those two, especially the predator did strike me.

The AF is also spending a lot of money upgrading AC-130s (to include adding directed energy weapons) and buying more Predator A and Bs.

In the so called "fighter dominated Air Force" it also strikes me that the AF halved its F-22 buy--not because of current fighters, not because of the JSF, but in Gen Moseley's own words in large part due to UCASs. Seeing the simulated JSF working firsthand and talking with some of the engineers, it’s a lot closer to a UCAS than most people think. The only reason the JSF pilot needs to be in the cockpit instead of some van down by the river flying the thing is bandwidth. Besides that, the JSF pilot gains nothing from being in the cockpit. Not situational awareness, not a better view—nothing. In fact, since he or she is sitting in the cockpit, they are significantly reducing the capability of the aircraft in regards to stealth, maneuverability, survivability, range, payload, speed, and operating efficiency. The engineers realize that, the AF pilots who actually fly the sim realize that, and I realized that after I saw it. It was like a kick to the balls.

Half of F-22s killed for an un-manned aircraft? The new generation bomber with no onboard pilot (It IS true if you haven't heard yet)? The Predator providing "better" CAS to Army and Marine toops in urban combat?

BLASPHEMY! I hear again?

May be, but I just found this not three minutes ago:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/nov2005/1105armada.asp

Wow, that tangent opened a can o' worms, didn't it?

 

[Spur]

We got the Cagin Milita to come a few times

"Cagin" ??? as in related to "Nagin" ???

That'd be Cajun... although I'd prefer Coon-ass Militia...

I read a paper a few months back about urban CAS. It was a joint paper by the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force, retired military members, and military analysts/think tanks....

It was the AC-130 and Predator

Man, I could have saved them a bunch o' money....

 

[Deuce130]

AD SUPT Hopeful,

You are correct--along with much larger weapons. I was talking about stealth delivered 2000 lb LGBs. The last update I got on the JSF was they were trying to enlarge the two weapon bays to fit a GBU-32. Since LGBs are longer and have much larger fins, I have no idea if they would even be able to fit one in, even with an enlarged bay. I know for sure that you can pile them up on the wings, but that won't do much good on the first few nights when the IADS are still up.

JimNtexas,

I don't know what current ALOs have. I know Spec Ops has pretty good equipment. There was a Ranger Tabbed TACP in my old cadet squadron and it sounds like they have pretty good equipment as well.

I don't think the AF is trying to cast away the CAS mission as much as you think they are. Although there are many in the AF who don't care much for it, seeing the A-10C seems to counteract that idea somewhat. Its going to take at least 10 years for the JSF to completely take over the A-10s role. That's much longer than many thought the A-10 would serve in the AF any way.

I pushed people real hard about the JSF talking over the A-10 role every time I went to a JSF briefing. By the last briefing I went to, it sounded like they had a lot of people working real hard on making the JSF a good replacement for the A-10. I know that will make many people stop reading this and yell BLASPHEMY! It may very well be. And I would like to see a fly-off myself, but that's another story.



On a tangent, I read a paper a few months back about urban CAS. It was a joint paper by the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force, retired military members, and military analysts/think tanks. The goal was to study urban CAS in all its forms, understand the history, the requirements, and what worked best--from all the services--and make recommendations on were to go from there. Obviously Iraq took the forefront. I was surprised when I came to the conclusion. Based on all the factors, the joint report listed two weapons most useful for urban CAS. It wasn't the Navy F/A-18s or Marine Harriers. It wasn't the Air Force A-10s (which I thought was going to be the "winner" when I first saw the title), or F-16s, or Buffs. It was the AC-130 and Predator. Those two weapon systems consistently held the highest marks by the Army and Marines in urban combat for time over station, quickest response times, least collateral damage, best accuracy, most damage to the enemy, and least friendly casualties (if I remember correctly 0 for the predator).

Of course you can't use these aircraft in ALL situations, and other aircraft are more useful for enemy positions in the open--especially concentrated positions--but those two, especially the predator did strike me.

The AF is also spending a lot of money upgrading AC-130s (to include adding directed energy weapons) and buying more Predator A and Bs.

In the so called "fighter dominated Air Force" it also strikes me that the AF halved its F-22 buy--not because of current fighters, not because of the JSF, but in Gen Moseley's own words in large part due to UCASs. Seeing the simulated JSF working firsthand and talking with some of the engineers, it’s a lot closer to a UCAS than most people think. The only reason the JSF pilot needs to be in the cockpit instead of some van down by the river flying the thing is bandwidth. Besides that, the JSF pilot gains nothing from being in the cockpit. Not situational awareness, not a better view—nothing. In fact, since he or she is sitting in the cockpit, they are significantly reducing the capability of the aircraft in regards to stealth, maneuverability, survivability, range, payload, speed, and operating efficiency. The engineers realize that, the AF pilots who actually fly the sim realize that, and I realized that after I saw it. It was like a kick to the balls.

Half of F-22s killed for an un-manned aircraft? The new generation bomber with no onboard pilot (It IS true if you haven't heard yet)? The Predator providing "better" CAS to Army and Marine toops in urban combat?

BLASPHEMY! I hear again?

May be, but I just found this not three minutes ago:

http://www.afa.org/magazine/nov2005/1105armada.asp

Wow, that tangent opened a can o' worms, didn't it?

Merlin 05, you seem incredibly well read for a 2005 grad from USAFA. Keep it up, it'll serve you well in the AF. Anyone who's spent anytime around the Weapons School knows that CAS is an extremely high priority for the CAF, and we get better at it by the day. For JimNTexas, yes, the ground pounders are very well equipped these days and pretty much get whatever they ask for. CAS is a high priority for them as well, and our combat controllers are in high demand and can be found just about anywhere and everywhere these days. Sleep well at night, O' Seasoned Veteran, the next generation has seen the errors of the past and is working hard to prevent them from happening again! With that said, et's get working on how to make the F-22 the greatest CAS platform ever....

 

[floater_b2]

Well, I think the attitude towards CAS may have changed, I certainly hope so. Part of my job at Fort Hood was to try an presuade fighter units to come fly CAS with us, we had to have it for currency. Only the guard F-16 units would come, because at that time the active F-16 forces (at least the ones within a reasonable distance of Fort Hood) did not have a CAS mission, or so they said. We got the Cagin Milita to come a few times with their OA-10s, but Lousiana to Fort Hood was a major cross country for them.

Certainly no matter who showed up, we had nothing in the way of technology to help us control them.

But we took comfort in the notion that the B-2 pilots had gold plated round king size beds and Plasma screen TVs in their cockpit.

Jim, Have you ever even seen a B-2 cockpit? I think your comments about the king size bed and plasma screens are a little bit misguided. Your knowledge and comments are truly outdated and it's a shame you feel as you do. And, just so you know, pretty much ever single aircraft out there has a CAS role and trains to it routinely, including heavy bombers like the B-2 that you hate so much. I know that will raise some eyebrows with some of you who have been out of the AF for awhile but it is true.

 

[NookyBooky]

Jim, Have you ever even seen a B-2 cockpit? I think your comments about the king size bed and plasma screens are a little bit misguided. Your knowledge and comments are truly outdated and it's a shame you feel as you do. And, just so you know, pretty much ever single aircraft out there has a CAS role and trains to it routinely, including heavy bombers like the B-2 that you hate so much. I know that will raise some eyebrows with some of you who have been out of the AF for awhile but it is true.

Call me ignorant if you please, but how can anyone justify the B-2 being a good CAS platform when you could purchase a whole squadron of Strike Eagles, or several squadrons of Warthogs, for around the same price. I'm no ground pounder and I'm not a military pilot, but if I was a grunt I think I would much rather have one of the latter two rather than the former.

 

[talondriver]

Call me ignorant if you please, but how can anyone justify the B-2 being a good CAS platform when you could purchase a whole squadron of Strike Eagles, or several squadrons of Warthogs, for around the same price. I'm no ground pounder and I'm not a military pilot, but if I was a grunt I think I would much rather have one of the latter two rather than the former.

I think I'd rather have a CAS platform with max loiter time and doesn't have to keep hitting the tanker. I don't know how many JDAMs the B-2 can carry, but I'm sure it's more than a two-ship of Hogs or even a two-ship of Strike Eagles.

I'm sure the grunts are more concerned about seeing a smoking hole where Haji use to be than what's doing the smoking.

 

[floater_b2]

Nooky, I am not saying the B-2 is good for every CAS situation. However, my point was that the plane has the capability, and in fact, depending on the situation, it could be an excellent platform. It carries 16 2000# JDAMs or 80 500# JDAMs. Will it ever be used in a CAS role for real? Who knows? The Buffs and Bones are routinely used in an XCAS role so I wouldn't rule it out. The crews do train for that sort of thing as well as other XINT and TST missions that most people would not think of the B-2 as being well suited for. My whole point to Jim was that the emphasis is currently being placed on CAS for just about every platform out there because the leadership does not want to find themselves in the situation where there are troops in contact, 300 planes airborne with ordnance, and not a single one able to help the guys on the ground. They actually learned lessons from the past and are trying to fix them now.

 

[JimNtexas]

deleted

 

[Gorilla]

I've beeon out of the operational world for a qhile, but it would seem to me, with a solid system in place for datalinking target coords, the B2 would rock.

Isn't there a device that will deliver lat/lon of a target to the ground troop? In other words, the guy lases a target. Knowing what his own coordinates are, and the range and bearing to the target, the unit generates correct target coordinates. These get linked instantly to the B2. Shoot those coords into a JDAM, bombs away. Next bomb gets ready.

The B2 (or BUFF) could loiter for hours, while the FEBA works forward, sending set after set of coordinates to the JDAM platform. Death from above, all weather, day or night.

At the same time, a gaggle of hogs and vipers could spank targets of opportunity. Combined arms wins the day!

 

[JimNtexas]

I've beeon out of the operational world for a qhile, but it would seem to me, with a solid system in place for datalinking target coords, the B2 would rock.

Isn't there a device that will deliver lat/lon of a target to the ground troop? In other words, the guy lases a target. Knowing what his own coordinates are, and the range and bearing to the target, the unit generates correct target coordinates. These get linked instantly to the B2. Shoot those coords into a JDAM, bombs away. Next bomb gets ready.

Actually such a device has existed since the late 80s. The datalink reciever was installed in a few F-4Gs and F-16s so that they could talk to each other, and computers, radios, and laser rangefinders did exist that could ground FACs could have used to send target coordinates to aircraft. But because we spent so much money on gold plated landing gear handles for the B-2 and F-22 we ground FACs had to make do with grease pencils. Which we mostly bought with our own money, since the Air Force did not fund office supplies for ground FACs.

I still am angry about how ill-equiped we ALOs were to support the army, and why I'll never trust senior Air Force officers to make rational resource allocations of taxpayer money.

Because we wasted so much money and attention on having a bomber that could have a chance to fly to Moscow and nuke a smoking hole (B-2) and an airplane to stroke the egos of the single seat generals (F-22) we just didn't have the money to spend on supporting the Army. Even if the senior Air Force officers had had the slightest interest in supporting the Army, which they didn't.

Yes, the B-2 can do what the B-1 and B-52 can do in terms of trucking long range glide bombs around. Of course the B-2 is very limited in terms of its ablity to deploy, but since the B-2 pilots are provided with a heart shaped rotating bed with a mirrored ceiling just behind their cockpit it is no problem for them to fly these 30 hour missions. It just costs 5x per bomb to do it. It is as if we turned our nose up at our fleet of Ford F-250s (B-52s) and decided that since we still need pickup trucks after all we'd just convert some Mercedes S550's into pickups.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Who needs the 117 when we have AGM-86s! We should all just realize to curb the exponential growth of Chinese weapon systems and the likelyhood that our systems will be outmooded in the near future we need to put launch platforms in LEO. Precision strike can be accompished with retasking such assets. Also, who ever "militarizes" space first, and I am not talking about Midcourse effects from ballistic missiles, will have the upperhand both in geopolitical and tactical engagements. I think we are missing this opportunity to secure the CONUS from long-term strategic threats, I.E. the PRC.

 

[stonewall]

Actually such a device has existed since the late 80s. The datalink reciever was installed in a few F-4Gs and F-16s so that they could talk to each other, and computers, radios, and laser rangefinders did exist that could ground FACs could have used to send target coordinates to aircraft. But because we spent so much money on gold plated landing gear handles for the B-2 and F-22 we ground FACs had to make do with grease pencils. Which we mostly bought with our own money, since the Air Force did not fund office supplies for ground FACs.

I still am angry about how ill-equiped we ALOs were to support the army, and why I'll never trust senior Air Force officers to make rational resource allocations of taxpayer money.

Because we wasted so much money and attention on having a bomber that could have a chance to fly to Moscow and nuke a smoking hole (B-2) and an airplane to stroke the egos of the single seat generals (F-22) we just didn't have the money to spend on supporting the Army. Even if the senior Air Force officers had had the slightest interest in supporting the Army, which they didn't.

Yes, the B-2 can do what the B-1 and B-52 can do in terms of trucking long range glide bombs around. Of course the B-2 is very limited in terms of its ablity to deploy, but since the B-2 pilots are provided with a heart shaped rotating bed with a mirrored ceiling just behind their cockpit it is no problem for them to fly these 30 hour missions. It just costs 5x per bomb to do it. It is as if we turned our nose up at our fleet of Ford F-250s (B-52s) and decided that since we still need pickup trucks after all we'd just convert some Mercedes S550's into pickups.

I'm sure it sucked....BACK THEN JIM!!!! Link 16...read up on it and join the modern Air force.

 

[JimNtexas]

" I'm sure it sucked....BACK THEN JIM!!!! Link 16...read up on it and join the modern Air force."

Please explain to my addled old brain why we need a B-2 to drop long range standoff bombs when a B-1 could do it at a fraction of the cost?

SJS is not confined to just the airlines.

 

[stonewall]

Stealth.

 

[floater_b2]

Jim, your hostility towards the B-2 and F-22 is amazing, especially since you are basing all of your ideas and arguments on outdated information. Having done those long sorties in the B-2 I can speak with certainty that the accomodations on that aircraft for crew rest are far from stellar. Definitely no heart shaped bed with mirrors, although if it helps you sleep at night thinking there are then have at it. All your arguments against stealth really show is that you know absolutely nothing about stealth and what it brings to the fight. More than just myself have tried to point out to you that the AF has tried to remedy the past mistakes as far as CAS goes but yet you still hold on to your bitterness. I would suggest that you at least brush up on some current facts and knowledge to try to beef up your arguments a bit.

 

[floater_b2]

Oh, and to answer your question as to why we need a B-2 to drop long range standoff ...Quite simple actually. You can now fight your own way in using the benefits of long range and stealth and then drop on the targets that really matter. JASSM is a great weapon and when you mix in some JASSM, 2000# JDAMs, and 5000# bunker busters and then add a dash of stealth to the mix you are able to now do things that no other platform currently can do.

 

[Flyin Tony]

From the 117 to taxes

 

[Prop2Jet]

kill the CHICOMS!