F-104 Starfighter or T-38

[LearLove]

I think the guy (or guys) who flies the 104's for that starfighters outfit is on the scab list.

not to start anything just FYI.

 

[psysicx]

I just looked up the Magister and what a cool looking plane.Does anybody have any performance information on it?

 

[414Flyer]

F-104 = Dangerous Airplane.

Even Yeager is scared of them. There's a reason the Luftwaffe flew them and ended up suffering around a 60% attrition rate. It's the plane the term Widowmaker was coined for. I personally wouldn't set foot in one.

If you want to get your need for speed on, you could try either Incredible Adventures, which sells rides in MiG-29s, MiG-21s, and MiG-25s out of Zhukovski airfield near Moscow, or Wings over South Africa (I think that's what they're called). They sell rides in a BAC Lightning and some other stuff out of Cape Town.

I only know of one privately owned T-38. No idea if rides are available.

The reason the Luftwaffe had such high rates, was not as much about the airplane, but more how it was being operated. Other countries did not have such rates.

There was a privately owned blue T-38 when I was living in Wichita Falls, but I did not know anything about it or who owned it.

 

[414Flyer]

Wasn't one of the automaker CEO's a 104 owner/pilot (retired AF guy that flew them and then bought one) Coulda swore I saw a show on Discovery Wings about the guy flying around Willow Run.
There was a Mig 15 based in Latrobe, PA but I think the owner moved the plane to Nevada this past fall.

That might have been about Lutz, the then chrysler CEO who was ex USMC and flew an L-39.

 

[RJP]

The White Rocket (no longer white) is still one of the sexiest airplanes ever made. It was a blast to fly, rolled faster than anything in the sky and climbed like a mother**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**er in full blower.

That's where I'd put my money if I was you.

 

[coolyokeluke]

There's two F104's in Hillsboro OR. The two seater is being restored to flying status. They were purchased from Turkey. The same owner has a Mig15 that's been restored to flying status.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

The F-104 is only dangerous if you don't know how to keep it above 180 over the fence ---Or, in Yeagers case, go for a high alititude record on a whim....

The Right Stuff made it look like a joyride. But Yeagar I think was part of a program that was testing various kinds of control augmentation with jets at high altitude. Kind of like those they used on the X-15 and later on the space flights. Still, it was a cool sequence in the movie.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

The F-104 because I once sat on a beach as a kid, when two of those came screaming by in burner at 200 feet. It was unreal and one of the greatest things I have seen, not to mention heard!

I loved watching and listening to that airplane. As a kid, I remember seeing a couple of them at Ontario, CA and I believe the Arizona Air Guard had them for a time. Awesome machine.

F-104 is the ultimate plane anhd has no equal. 252 MPH landing speed and Daryl Greenameyer set a speed record in his before he crashed it. it was something like 998 MPH at sea level.

I wonder if that is equivilant sea level speed. Greenameyer set that record over a dry lakebed near Tonopah, NV. He took ten years building the plane in his garage in Van Nuys from spare parts he found wherever he could. Of course, flying it wasn't a real stretch for him because he was an SR-71 test pilot and had flown an F-104 previously. He took off from Tonopah airport with just 17 minutes of fuel on board, made two sweeps across the lakebed and returned on fumes. Speed, 1010 mph and 1020 mph per sweep.

The sponsor of his airplane at that time was Ed Browning of Red Baron Aviation in Idaho. Greenameyer could get all the parts but couldn't get an engine and the DOD was trying to keep him from getting that. Browning was able to "borrow" and engine from someone for the flights. When Greenameyer had that hydraulic failure and had to punch our of the his 104 over Mojave, the loss of that engine really hurt Browning financially.

There used to be a private TF-104 at Williams Gateway in PHX. Don't know if it is still there though.

As said before, It is a very hot airplane.....Be careful who the PIC is. Stub wings don't lend themselves to low timer rich guys.

The wing area is the same as that of a C-150/152. The couple that owned the one as IWA were both former Air Force pilots and Greenameyer was involved with them too. He was teaching them the airplane. I lived 5 miles away from IWA and hung out there a lot at the time. The last I saw of the airplane it was sans engine sitting on the North ramp of IWA, not in the quansett-hut style shade hangar it occupied when I would watch it fly.

I use to sit out there and watch them doing touch an goes. I remember the mechanic working on the airplane. Once when they taxiied it over to a remote part of the ramp, they "ran it up" so's to speak and the mechanic chuckled and said "That's the sound of MONEY!"

From what I understand, working with that airplane I am told, brought back some of the love of aviation for Greenameyer after he lost that B-29 that burned up on the glacier in Greenland I believe it was.

 

[bocefus]

"There's not a person alive, except maybe Bill Gates, that could afford to operate an F-4. Never mind maintain one."

As Ill Mitch posted, the Collings Foundation does in fact have a flying F4 and was doing the air show circuit with it. Steve Ritchie was the pilot and it was painted in the same colors as the the F4 he was flying when he bagged a Mig. I understand that they were giving rides in it for a "donation" and the Feds
didn't like the idea. I'm not sure what they are doing with it now.
http://www.collingsfoundation.org/tx_f-4dphantom.htm

 

[EagleRJ]

The Right Stuff made it look like a joyride. But Yeagar I think was part of a program that was testing various kinds of control augmentation with jets at high altitude. Kind of like those they used on the X-15 and later on the space flights. Still, it was a cool sequence in the movie.

Correct- the plane Yeager crashed was an NF-104, which was modified with a reaction-control system and a 6000 pound thrust rocket engine in the tail. Yeager was on a test flight and decided to try for an altitude record as long as he was up there.
Flying the NF-104 involved making a supersonic climb in full burner until the engine flamed out, and then lighting the rocket engine and continuing up over 100,000'. The trouble was the F-104 had a serious problem with going into a deep stall, and going to full burner was the only way to recover. As he started to come over the top of the climb, the plane pitched up and went into a deep stall, and he used up all his thruster propellant trying to get the nose down. He wound up in a flat spin, and with the engine still out, he had no way to recover. He ran out of ideas and ejected just before impact, after spinning from 108,000'.
His account of the accident in his book makes it sound like definitely wasn't a joyride, but it did have the sound of an unplanned excursion from the test card.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

That might have been about Lutz, the then chrysler CEO who was ex USMC and flew an L-39.

That could be. But I am sure they talked about someone flying the 104 also.

 

[414Flyer]

From what I understand, working with that airplane I am told, brought back some of the love of aviation for Greenameyer after he lost that B-29 that burned up on the glacier in Greenland I believe it was.

I think the F-104 saga of his, predates the B-29 story by quite a few years.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

From what I understand, working with that airplane I am told, brought back some of the love of aviation for Greenameyer after he lost that B-29 that burned up on the glacier in Greenland I believe it was.

I think the F-104 saga of his, predates the B-29 story by quite a few years.

The F-104 he used to break the records and eventually had to eject from, yes. Not the TF-104 he taught the couple at IWA to fly. That came after the B-29 incident in Greenland. He gave an interview covering that airplane and its story in his life in particular for something like the Wings Channel.

 

[414Flyer]

Oh okay..i thought you were mentioning the previous F-104 story. Wonder what his low level run came out to in Mach speed.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

Oh okay..i thought you were mentioning the previous F-104 story. Wonder what his low level run came out to in Mach speed.

Hmmm, I don't know what it would be. Mach 1.5 maybe? Probably faster. I do remember him telling the story once and how, what his mind was seeing actually had occured a long time before it reached his brain. Something like a half a mile behind the airplane itself.

The low level runs were intended to break the Russian held records since the Air Force wasn't doing it with the SR-71. Funny, that whole thing sparked a lot of record breaking flights.

 

[Ill Mitch]

I just looked up the Magister and what a cool looking plane.Does anybody have any performance information on it?

Performance is slow and slower. Have you seen the cockpit? It was like the French tried for a record in how many gauges they could put on a panel. And you need three hands just to start an engine.

 

[Spooky 1]

Misiniformation

I loved watching and listening to that airplane. As a kid, I remember seeing a couple of them at Ontario, CA and I believe the Arizona Air Guard had them for a time. Awesome machine.



I wonder if that is equivilant sea level speed. Greenameyer set that record over a dry lakebed near Tonopah, NV. He took ten years building the plane in his garage in Van Nuys from spare parts he found wherever he could. Of course, flying it wasn't a real stretch for him because he was an SR-71 test pilot and had flown an F-104 previously. He took off from Tonopah airport with just 17 minutes of fuel on board, made two sweeps across the lakebed and returned on fumes. Speed, 1010 mph and 1020 mph per sweep.

The sponsor of his airplane at that time was Ed Browning of Red Baron Aviation in Idaho. Greenameyer could get all the parts but couldn't get an engine and the DOD was trying to keep him from getting that. Browning was able to "borrow" and engine from someone for the flights. When Greenameyer had that hydraulic failure and had to punch our of the his 104 over Mojave, the loss of that engine really hurt Browning financially.




The wing area is the same as that of a C-150/152. The couple that owned the one as IWA were both former Air Force pilots and Greenameyer was involved with them too. He was teaching them the airplane. I lived 5 miles away from IWA and hung out there a lot at the time. The last I saw of the airplane it was sans engine sitting on the North ramp of IWA, not in the quansett-hut style shade hangar it occupied when I would watch it fly.

I use to sit out there and watch them doing touch an goes. I remember the mechanic working on the airplane. Once when they taxiied it over to a remote part of the ramp, they "ran it up" so's to speak and the mechanic chuckled and said "That's the sound of MONEY!"

From what I understand, working with that airplane I am told, brought back some of the love of aviation for Greenameyer after he lost that B-29 that burned up on the glacier in Greenland I believe it was.

The engine in Greeamyer's F104 was borrowed from the Navy. J79 out of an F4. The fact is that Chuck Thornton's father was the CEO and founder of Litton Industries and their military point man, by the name of J. Ray Donohue arranged for the loaner. When the airplane was destroyed, Greenamyer owed the US Navy something around a mere $500,000 for the engine. A bargin in anybody's book. PS. He did not build it in his garage. The original airframe, minus wings was out of the Lockheed factory. It was a mockup that was painted in what ever colors and decals were appropriate for the visiting Generals who were considering the purcahse for their respective airforce use. None of the original rivets were spec and all had to be done over again. Don't recall where he found the wings, but beside the engine problem the other big issue was an ejection seat. That came out of a Puerto Rican ANG F104 in trade for an F86 airframe. The ANG at VNY had flown the F86, but never the F104 so when the F104 was brought to VNY for a static display, Greenamyer traded one whole F86 airframe for one F104 ejection seat. Pretty smart move considering what happened.

 

[Spooky 1]

Contact me

Anyone know, where I can buy a ride in one?

Thanks,

D8

PM me and I can put you in touch with the F104 guys that I know. May be some other ideas as well.

Spooky 1

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

If you want climb perfomance, check out the KC-135R.

From a standing start on the runway, to any altitude, it will crush the T-38. About the only thing with better climb perfomance than a light-weight R model is the F-15 and fighters like it with a better than 1:1 thrust:weight ratio, or an orbital spacecraft launching.

I was at an airshow in GFK, and saw an R model do a high-speed, low pass. At the end it pitched up over 70 degrees and climbed out to 15K feet at that attitude.

Psycho!

CLiff
MMIO

 

[TonyC]

If you want climb perfomance, check out the KC-135R.

However, if you want a nice aileron roll/immelman/sliceback/loop/cuban 8/cloverleaf/lazy 8/barrel roll/split S combination...


Ooops... better check the area boundaries now!



The Talon's got all that and more... it only lacks the Spin Recovery!



I'd be thrilled to have a chance to ride in a F-104. I know a certain F-104 that has been rolled around the lawn quite a bit... of course, I wouldn't have any idea how it got on top of the hill or on the Parade Grounds or in the Dean's parking slot. It was just there when we woke up <wink> <wink>.