Express Jet Mins

[pilotmyf]

I know someone just hired with Xjet with 1200TT, not sure about his Multi - but xjet's mins for the school I am training at is 500TT 100M (with a type rating), but I guess that info only helps those with 300TT or less.

At 500 hours at your school, how many PIC hours are flown single pilot. (no ther pilot on board)?

 

[Nova]

Oh wow... gee Nova thanks for clearing that up for me... I had NO IDEA how military training works (can you feel the sarcasm?)...

The issue wasn't what someone had flown, but that they didn't wanna cut anyone a break with 5-600 hours and that they cound't be "trusted" alone with an autopilot for 10 minutes. But thanks for explaining how the military training differs from civilian, I had no idea, seeing as how I've gone through both worlds.

You would think if anyone who would know the difference between a 500 hour military pilot and a 500 hour civilian pilot it would be you but apparently not.

Of the few that I've known to go through our training system this year those with <1000 hours have had the most trouble. A few of the check airmen I've flown with have had more deficiencies on a whole with those <1000 hours than those with >1500 hours.

From the sounds of it you've spent quite a bit of time flying around with our 500 hour wonder pilots and know more about it than any of us could.

 

[FlyHigh]

I have seen people on the gouges getting hired with like 610tt and 105 multi.... APPLY!

 

[MJG]

The issue is that pilots with 600 hours TT are not ready for this job, period. The issue is that despite that, our company feels that they are. The issue is that somehow XJet has convinced its liability insurance provider that 600 hour pilots are not a liability. The issue is that after doing 80 hours of OE, these folks are getting "dumped" into the system and "dumped" into the hands of line captains like myself. The issue is that I end up having to contiue their OE training even though they've "technically" completed their training cycle. The issue is that I'm teaching 600 hour pilots how to fly passengers around for the first time in their life. The issue is that some of these pilots still don't have a good grasp on the IFR system. The issue is that the first time these folks are doing an approach to CAT I mins, in their life, is with 50 people in the back on a revenue flight and not much extra fuel to play with. The issue is that we are setting ourselves up to be the lead story on CNN when the worst happens.

I sure as hell don't want to be the Captain of the flight that is part of that lead story on CNN. That's the friking issue.

Some of you need to grow thicker skin. I'm not cutting anyone a break just because they got hired with low time. This isn't some kind of game, where if you screw up you can just start over. If you're so confident about your abilities that you apply here and successfully make it through the training process, then you'd better be on top of your sh!t. That's where I'm coming from on this issue.

I for one do not enjoy teaching the four fundamentals of flight to brand new FO's in a swept wing jet airplane with paying customers in the back. Why am I teaching the four fundamentals of flight to someone with 600, 700 1000 hours of TT?? Because this airplane is a whole different animal than anyone with that kind of time has ever flown. You end up having to re-learn much of what you thought you knew about flying airplanes.

Most of you have no idea what it's like to be putting your certificate, your livelihood, your career and most importantly your life, on the line when you are flying with low time, inexperienced pilots at this level.

Most of the posts in this thread are not from experienced line Captains who know what I'm talking about.

So respond all you want but unless you've spent a couple yars as PIC in this airplane, you really don't understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Nova]

Careful MJG, Patmack18 has clearly stated that you are wrong as there are 600 hour pilots flying around in military jets and so their civilian counterparts are just as qualified.

 

[greyhound]

All right MJG...I've got my notepad...

Could you please tell me what it is that we need to learn so that the guys who are fortunate enough to get hired with low time will not be such a liability?

This is a serious question (No sarcasm) since I always want to avoid being the one who holds back others.

I'm ready to learn what it is a low-timer can do to make all captains live's easier?

What problems have you encountered?

Trying to make this an educational thread for all of us.

Thanks..

 

[Nova]

IFR proficent and to it in the fastest airplane you operate.

 

[labbats]

I got hired into a regional jet at 1300 hours. I flew a bit of night freight and tons of IMC before that as a CFII. My skills were sharp, but this is a different animal. I was bored with IFR rules and regs from teaching them for 1 1/2 years. Yet you don't study the 250kt restriction at 10,000 feet for instance.

There are callouts, mach numbers, autopilot configurations, IFR rules, etc that I, and many of my classmates were struggling through. We studied hard and made it, but I am honestly stunned that anyone at 600 hours would be strong enough in their skills to make this jump properly. There isn't time to learn anything new on top of what the company starts pouring on you about systems and such.

Without a solid base (which at 600 hours I felt I had, but in retrospect I wasn't even close) you're just making a mess. I feel for these captains too. And I'll do my best to be prepared as possible, but without some experiences to draw on, I probably would be quite a liability. At 600 hours you're ahead of a C172, but now you've got 50 people with loved ones waiting on them and counting on you to be ahead of a swept wing jet in all kinds of weather you've probably never seen before. 6-8 weeks isn't going to prepare you properly for that.

 

[Bad-Andy]

Could you please tell me what it is that we need to learn so that the guys who are fortunate enough to get hired with low time will not be such a liability?

My $.02... Like everyone else said, basic IFR skills. Know how to read a Jepp chart (all of it, not just the basics they ask in the interview). Know how to QUICKLY find minimum safe altitudes (of all kinds, MEA, MOCA, MVA, etc...) on the charts and plates. Understand the basics of non-radar, off-airway manuvering, and when to accept decents and when not to accept the same decents. Know how to find the max altitude/airspeed restrictions for the places we fly (several of the airports we serve are all different). Think ahead of the aircraft. Don't sit and read the paper for half the flight and then be a$$holes and elbows trying to get down. Know basic winter ops procedures. Know the aerodynamics behind swept wing flying, especially high altitude stuff.

I've flown with some low time new guys (500 hours... One of whom just upgraded and was one of the best F/O's I've flown with both on trip one after IOE and on the last trip before upgrade) and a lot of higher time guys (thousands of hours when hired). Not to knock you guys, but the majority of low time guys struggle more than the high time guys in the beginning. It is a lot steeper learning curve, and the lack of good single pilot experience makes it a lot harder. But, attitude seems to play the biggest part in it all. Work a little harder to learn and understand the stuff you never had the chance to learn other ways, and you'll be fine...

 

[superrav]

Depends on the person and the quality of there intial training..private to commerical.

 

[BoilerUP]

Its all about how you have been trained, and what your experience is. As I said in a previous post, the number in the Total Time column of your logbook is a fairly poor way to judge if somebody is a good, safe, competent pilot or not. Look at the big picture.

You can't fly a swept-wing jet (or straight wing t-prop for that matter) the same way you fly a 172 or even a Seminole. That being said, with the proper training, a good attitude and good skills, its not THAT difficult. I've jumpseated on the Embraer 135/145 family, and they didn't strike me as difficult airplanes to fly. The crews flying them echoed that sentiment to me.

If you are instrument current (far more importantly, instrument proficient) and generally have good situational awareness, you *should* be fine. Stuff happens fast at .78 mach at FL370, and even faster in a terminal environment at 250kts, but study hard and I think you'll be fine. Good luck.

 

[Caveman]

"To the guy who "can't wait to fly with me", I can't wait to fly with you! i know i wouldn't be the most experienced pilot you've ever flown with but i can guarantee that i'll show up to work with a positive attitude, a willingness to learn, and a respect for your position. Happy flying!"

Keep that attitude going and you'll go a long ways in this industry. I'll fly with you anytime.

I tend to agree with Patmack on this one. Take a 600 hour pilot with a good attitude and a modicum of talent, put them through a 121 training regimen, add in a touch of patient leadership and guidance and you'll end up with a competent RJ F/O. This ain't rocket science .....

 

[voteno]

Know how to read a Jepp chart (all of it, not just the basics they ask in the interview). Know how to QUICKLY find minimum safe altitudes (of all kinds, MEA, MOCA, MVA, etc...) on the charts and plates. .

That is some very good information to know with both engines running, BUT, when one quits in the WHISTLING SH!TCAN of DEATH, be ready to hike out of the hills of Mexico! Wrong airplane for the mountains......Terrain Clearance my ASSS!

 

[Sphrynxlla]

what the 145?

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Now what would you say about a guy who has around 600TT and 350 of that 121 ME? Still no chance? I'd like to know what options are available out there.

 

[sweptback]

Now what would you say about a guy who has around 600TT and 350 of that 121 ME? Still no chance? I'd like to know what options are available out there.

Why not apply and see if you get called?

It's not a race though, you'd probably be better off if you gave your current employer a year or so.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Why not apply and see if you get called?

It's not a race though, you'd probably be better off if you gave your current employer a year or so.

I'm actually in a good position now, but that may change. I'd just like to know where I can go with my relatively low time - definately would not want to instruct.
Do you guys have any pilots that commute to/from work as far as ANC?

 

[Nova]

We have a few that commute from Europe and Hawaii. It's definately not the norm but commuting that distance is possible.

 

[boxjockey]

I tend to side with the "quality of experience" folks on this one. I was hired at XJT 10 months ago. I came out of a single pilot 135 night freight job. I had 2300 hours when hired, with 1000 hours ME. As a flight instructor with 1300 hours dual given, I have flown with a lot of different experience levels of pilots. One thing I have learned is the total number of hours these pilots have doesn't necessarily correlate with how good they are as "pilots". There is a big difference between being a "pilot" and an airplane "driver". I have flown with many folks who were excellent on the stick and rudder, but when it came to decision making skills and knowledge, they were severely lacking. I've also flown with people who have experienced many different adverse situations in aircraft, who have sound decision making skills, that crash the airplane every time it hits the pavement. When I was a flight instructor in FL, I thought I knew alot about flying. I felt at 1300 hours I was an experienced pilot. Then I got a job with airnet, flying light twins and single engine turboprops, at night, in ice, level 5 squall lines, 1/2 mile vis in blowing snow, etc.. This was a real wakeup call for me. When I came to XJT, the experiences I had both as a flight instructor and part 135 aided me in my transition to the jet. The airplane isn't hard to fly. What is more difficult is aiding your captain, when sh1t hits the fan, and you don't have any real life experiences to draw on, only what you learned through reading or in class. I think the people who are hired at 600 hours are perfecly capable of the duties of FO. All I'm saying is if you have another pilot in the cockpit, who has experienced and resolved numerous problems while flying, that it seems to open the thought process for the crew and things get accomplished more accurately and efficiently. Time for lunch.


box

 

[plunger]

wow! i didn't mean to start a war when i started this thread. i can definately see both sides of the issue. as a low time guy, i would be thrilled to be offered a position and give 100% all the time to prove that i'm worthy to be there. BUT, i can also picture myself as a high time captain and thinking what the F%$# when someone like myself walks up and says "hi, i'm your fo today". i figure i'll apply in the next few months and if called for an interview great, if not, i'll keep building experience and apply again later. i know a few people who fly for xjet and it seems to be a great company. good luck to everyone who has applied and congrats to all those who recieved an offer!

 

[Vik]

I see both POV as well, but the XJET Capts need to take up hiring policy with their CP, not with the low time guys. They need to tell the low time guys what to do NOW so that the low time guys can study, prepare, etc., and make their life easier whenever they are hired at any regional.

They can't expect a guy w/ 600/100 to NOT apply for that job and keep flying 152's around the pattern. They would have jumped at the chance when they had 600/100. [Pot/kettle/black]

 

[flyer172r]

I'm going to float a theory here, meant as a possible reason why low-timers may get themselves in trouble. A pilot goes through his initial training, gets his private, jumps hardcore into his instrument, learning all the regs, how to do things, etc. He takes his instrument checkride, and his IFR flying skills are (hopefully) very sharp. Then he goes into his commercial, learns all the chandelles and lazy-8s (why we still do those I don't know). He gets his commercial, then CFI, then starts instructing. When he hits the magic number he applies to a regional. Meanwhile the entire time he's been getting his commercial/CFI then instructing he has flown little to no actual IFR. So now he's in training learning to fly an RJ while at the same time re-learning how to fly instruments.

I think this is a possible reason why captains have problems with low-timers. They don't have true instrument proficiency, and are trying to get it back when they're figuring out the jet. So if this theory holds water (not necessarily the case), then if a low-timer has flown a lot of IFR in somewhat complex airplanes, does that make him a more acceptable candidate in the eyes of you experienced captains?

 

[KPTO]

To agree and Disagree at the same time ,that is the question

It seems to me that what we have here is an industry which has been stagnant for several years, thus creating very experienced CAs and FOs flying together. In fact one could say that with several thousands of hour spread equally on both seats, it could be quite a challenge to fly with someone who is not only be green on the plane and 121 regs but also total time. As an FO I NOW understand the true meaning of PIC. The skipper has an awesome responsability he is the ring leader, conductor or manager of what could (if left to enthropy) be a disaster.
So have a little patience with us poor inexperience FOs , remember y'ALL are teaching us to be captains.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

We have a few that commute from Europe and Hawaii. It's definately not the norm but commuting that distance is possible.

Wow, that must be pretty tough to commute from HI and Europe! One more question, does XJet require the applicant to be at least 21 years of ago to get interviewed or hired on?