Exec parties as Flops drops 50

[400pilot]

How about the points you get from the hotel reward programs you have. Did he stay in any hotels that you couldn't have stayed in for free with the amount of points you've earned that the company paid for?

Points don't go as far as you think. It took me 8+ years of hoarding all of my Northwest, Delta and Continental miles to earn enough for 2 roundtrip tickets to Orlando. I could have bought those same tickets for $400 each. Collecting all these points effectively adds between $400 and $600 PER YEAR to my salary. There is no comparison. Your argument is irrelevant....

 

[993_Pilot]

I've asked this before and it was ignored, but I would love to hear somebody try and make up an intellegent answer :

Did he go anyplace in that jet you couldn't have gone for free by using the milage programs you've earned flying commercially that the company paid for?

How about the points you get from the hotel reward programs you have. Did he stay in any hotels that you couldn't have stayed in for free with the amount of points you've earned that the company paid for?

Is the value of what you earned for perks the same or greater than the perks he used by being on a company jet? In other words, except for the fact that he flew on company equipment (he doesn't earn the points the way pilots do) should he be denied the right to free transportation as a perk? You get it. Why shouldn't he?

I can sure tell you that he didn't earn it the way the pilots do. As someone already pointed out, it is only worth a few hundred $$ a year, Could he charter a jet for that same few hundred? If you want to make it commensurate with our levels of compensation, then triple it, and he still couldn't pay for that charter. To get the perks that we do, the pilots ride the stinking cattle cars about 50 days a year, often in middle seats. We also probably average around 150 nights /year in a hotel, away from our families. I can guarantee you he doesn't do that. The bigger question is why would the company cry poor, furlough hundreds of employees and then waste money like that?. . . I'll tell you why, Poor management and insensitivity to the hundreds who are now struggling to pay their bill and feed their families. No excuse for it.

 

[Fedmagnet]

you think you're worth that?......lol

you gotta lot to learn about aviation......then you can be flamed.

The entire group of management azz kissin but monkeys need to learn about aviation. I have never seen more ignorance grouped together in one aviation department. Flops is the poster child of what not to be in aviation.
It is catching up to them. The company reputation, no matter what they call it or what color it is always stands out around the hangar and around the golf clubs.

Management has another business as usual day as the family's of pilots suffer do to poor management compounded with the bad economy. Management is still living like life is good on the backs of the pilots.

Too bad Tyler did not get to experience one of those famous Flops Beechjet Engine Flame Outs that mysteriously only occurs at Flops.

 

[Frac Cap]

I don't know about anybody else, but I am getting tired about hearing how we need to love our owners. I think it is about time they start loving the pilots, instead of furloughing them every other month. We have pilots loosing their marriages and homes, while they work the pilots that they do have 14 hours a day getting the 10 in 24 warning all the time now. I say we need to love our furloughed pilots. Send them a care package, or take their family our to dinner once in a while.

Now I see that the company has been dragging their feet, not being proactive with scheduling future negotiating dates. Now I hear that we have negotiating dates up till August. ALL THREE OF THEM. What happened to the trust. What happened to "I will personally get involved with getting these negotiating done".

All I've got to say is that I am loosing that loving feeling. The company needs to step up to the plate and get this contract done now. Show the pilots some love for a change. Take care of our family.

 

[HSDriver]

Frac Cap,

As long as the company has pilots scared into working the long hours why would management do anything differently? The facts haven't changed. Its up to the pilots to secure the contract. And right now, most of them are scared for their jobs.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I can sure tell you that he didn't earn it the way the pilots do. As someone already pointed out, it is only worth a few hundred $$ a year, Could he charter a jet for that same few hundred? If you want to make it commensurate with our levels of compensation, then triple it, and he still couldn't pay for that charter. To get the perks that we do, the pilots ride the stinking cattle cars about 50 days a year, often in middle seats. We also probably average around 150 nights /year in a hotel, away from our families. I can guarantee you he doesn't do that. The bigger question is why would the company cry poor, furlough hundreds of employees and then waste money like that?. . . I'll tell you why, Poor management and insensitivity to the hundreds who are now struggling to pay their bill and feed their families. No excuse for it.

That wasn't my question. Stop being jealous that he has taken on the responsibility of running a company and you haven't.

My question was, did he go anyplace that you couldn't go on the points you earned from frequent flyer mile programs that were paid for by the company?

Same with hotel points.

But the point I'm making is, you feel that is a perk you deserve and frankly, it's a freebee....

It's a perk that he's earned based on the position he's in. If you want that perk, step into his shoes.

Until then, just live with the free points you get that the company pays for and quit your whining because you can go to the exact same places for free that he goes, both of you going on the company's nickel.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I don't know about anybody else, but I am getting tired about hearing how we need to love our owners. I think it is about time they start loving the pilots, instead of furloughing them every other month. We have pilots loosing their marriages and homes, while they work the pilots that they do have 14 hours a day getting the 10 in 24 warning all the time now. I say we need to love our furloughed pilots. Send them a care package, or take their family our to dinner once in a while.

Now I see that the company has been dragging their feet, not being proactive with scheduling future negotiating dates. Now I hear that we have negotiating dates up till August. ALL THREE OF THEM. What happened to the trust. What happened to "I will personally get involved with getting these negotiating done".

All I've got to say is that I am loosing that loving feeling. The company needs to step up to the plate and get this contract done now. Show the pilots some love for a change. Take care of our family.

You need to stop blaming the company for this and ask your union leadership why they haven't gotten it done. The union is the one that wants the contract, the company wants no part of it.

The union needs to come to the table with reality in mind for today's economic climate and be reasonable.

There is always a middle ground.. but the union needs to set the tone because they are demanding something that has already and will disrupt the business model.

 

[wacoflyr]

The union needs to come to the table with reality in mind for today's economic climate and be reasonable.

Finally, B19, something we can agree on. Yes, the union does need to be reasonable. Management needs to be reasonable as well, and has no incentive to be in "today's economic climate" without the pilots organizing. Could an individual pilot get anywhere at all? Without an organization of some sort, these pilots couldn't negotiate a thing, reasonable or not. There would be no middle ground. Who decides what the scale is? If the management decides, with no influence from the pilots, the pilots almost always lose. Management, by design, feels pressure to cut expenses anywhere they can, including pilot's paychecks. Can't you just admit that? Please respond.

Wacoflyr

 

[Fedmagnet]

Management will not settle a contract until they are economically motivated. They presently do not have motivation to do so. The company controls the one person that controls the union which gives them control of the pilots. They have such confident control of it, they were able to sell the company as if there was no labor problems at all.
Its like a little kid swinging at the bully while the bully has his hand on the little kids head, keeping him from landing any good blows.
Kick him in the nuttz for motivation and someone should take back control of the union.

 

[jetwash]

Just do your job and follow company policy.

Fanatical attention to detail !!!!!

From preflight to post flight.

 

[993_Pilot]

That wasn't my question. Stop being jealous that he has taken on the responsibility of running a company and you haven't.

My question was, did he go anyplace that you couldn't go on the points you earned from frequent flyer mile programs that were paid for by the company?

Same with hotel points.

But the point I'm making is, you feel that is a perk you deserve and frankly, it's a freebee....

It's a perk that he's earned based on the position he's in. If you want that perk, step into his shoes.

Until then, just live with the free points you get that the company pays for and quit your whining because you can go to the exact same places for free that he goes, both of you going on the company's nickel.

I don't know where he went, and quite frankly, don't care whether it was some place that I could go on FF miles. btw, have you ever tried to take your family somewhere on FF miles? It isn't very easy to do unless you're really flexible and like to ride the red eyes. The point of my post was to show what a bunch of $$ this company is wasting, all why they cry "poor" to the union. It is also very selfish and extremely insensitive to the hundreds of pilots and their family members who are now on the street, because the company says they can't afford to pay them in "these trying economic times". Nobody would care one iota if he flew a trip around the world on the company nickle, as long as we didn't have pilots on the street and we were all fairly compensated. So my question to you, is how does management justify wasting money like that when they cry "poor" at the same time? They can't do it, and neither can you.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I don't know where he went, and quite frankly, don't care whether it was some place that I could go on FF miles. btw, have you ever tried to take your family somewhere on FF miles? It isn't very easy to do unless you're really flexible and like to ride the red eyes. The point of my post was to show what a bunch of $$ this company is wasting, all why they cry "poor" to the union. It is also very selfish and extremely insensitive to the hundreds of pilots and their family members who are now on the street, because the company says they can't afford to pay them in "these trying economic times". Nobody would care one iota if he flew a trip around the world on the company nickle, as long as we didn't have pilots on the street and we were all fairly compensated. So my question to you, is how does management justify wasting money like that when they cry "poor" at the same time? They can't do it, and neither can you.

You make the exact case that I describe about patting leadership on the back when times are good, yet blaming them for everything when times are bad.

In aviation when times are bad, they are bad for everybody. Unions prevent companies from adjusting to the market place.

How is this for a cure... management will not take any trips on company equipment that is designated in their contract, and the company will collect all FF points from flights they are paying for to use to pay for airfare to move flight crews around as FF miles are not designated in the pilot contract.

If we want to get into wasteful money, we can get into crew meals, five star hotels and other tidbits that the company pays for that they can save money on. Let's not stop at a private jet, let's get into cost cutting across the boards that affects rank and file employees as well as pilots and management.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Just do your job and follow company policy.

Fanatical attention to detail !!!!!

From preflight to post flight.

And management should do the same... It would improve the bottom line of the company ten-fold by trimming waste that pilots think are rights they own.

 

[B19 Flyer]

They just didn't get it done...

Management will not settle a contract until they are economically motivated. They presently do not have motivation to do so. The company controls the one person that controls the union which gives them control of the pilots. They have such confident control of it, they were able to sell the company as if there was no labor problems at all.
Its like a little kid swinging at the bully while the bully has his hand on the little kids head, keeping him from landing any good blows.
Kick him in the nuttz for motivation and someone should take back control of the union.

As I have stated for years... 1108 didn't get it done. Blame your union leadership for not negotiating in good faith while the economy was sound.

They just didn't get it done...

 

[mxpilot2]

Hate to point this out and prolong another post B19 is involved in...

Typical management move- cuts to those out in the field making the money for the company, so management can go on with their perks.

Cut crew meals? How are crews supposed to get through the day, when they don't know where they're landing next, and don't know if there's food to be had? B19 is the big airline guru: Try cutting crew meals on your 121 guys and listen. You'd hear the same things.

Five-star hotels? They didn't even do that back when I was there in the heyday. What do you propose, dropping it to Motel 6?? Less than that?? Quality of rest is critical to operating the way Fracs (and Options in particular, with the 8 day sched.) and shouldn't be compromised further.

From all the bickering I've read, the crews are just trying to get what their peers get. It can't even be called perks- those are the basics of doing the job. Rest and sustinence. Things that directly impact productivity, and things that have been fooled with to no good end.

 

[993_Pilot]

You make the exact case that I describe about patting leadership on the back when times are good, yet blaming them for everything when times are bad.

In aviation when times are bad, they are bad for everybody. Unions prevent companies from adjusting to the market place.

How is this for a cure... management will not take any trips on company equipment that is designated in their contract, and the company will collect all FF points from flights they are paying for to use to pay for airfare to move flight crews around as FF miles are not designated in the pilot contract.

If we want to get into wasteful money, we can get into crew meals, five star hotels and other tidbits that the company pays for that they can save money on. Let's not stop at a private jet, let's get into cost cutting across the boards that affects rank and file employees as well as pilots and management.

You must be dense! The whole point was that management is forcing cutbacks on the pilots, but apparently not on themselves. They have a fiscal responsibility to the company that they manage, and sending executives on vacation is not being responsible or sensitive to the hundreds that they furloughed. If it was a business trip maybe, but not vacation. I am not blaming management for the economy, just the condition of the company. FACT: Flops had 200+ aircraft and 1000+ pilots at one time. We are now down to 322 pilots and around 100 aircraft. Almost all of the aircraft loss came before the peak of the good times in 2007, and over 500 pilots (2/3 of the reduction) were lost during that same period. All while netjets continued to grow. That is poor management.

For the record, FF miles & hotel points may be a perk, but I wouldn't really care if I had to give them up during hard times, as long as management was giving up some perks too, and they return them when they start taking perks again themselves. It should be a tough time for all, but apparently it's only tough for the rank & file.

5-star hotels? What planet are you living on. I don't live in a trailer park, and I won't stay at Motel 6 or a Super 8. I expect to stay at a hotel that is somewhat comparable to how I live at home. Mostly we do, but they are typically 3 star hotels, not 5.

Crew Meals? That isn't a perk, it is a biological necessity. There is a lot of waste there, but that is mainly because the crews don't have control over ordering or canceling meals. They often order meals on a 30 minute repo from back to the US where customs will make us throw them away, or get us breakfast after we just ate at the hotel. Give the crews more control, and that waste stops. What would you suggest, that they don't feed us at all? I have news for you, it is a federal law... they either feed us, or give us the time to feed ourselves. They know full well that a heck of a lot more waste would happen by giving the crews a break during the day to go grab lunch, rather than feed us and have us keep flying.

 

[B19 Flyer]

They must have been a tougher group.

You must be dense! The whole point was that management is forcing cutbacks on the pilots, but apparently not on themselves. They have a fiscal responsibility to the company that they manage, and sending executives on vacation is not being responsible or sensitive to the hundreds that they furloughed. If it was a business trip maybe, but not vacation. I am not blaming management for the economy, just the condition of the company. FACT: Flops had 200+ aircraft and 1000+ pilots at one time. We are now down to 322 pilots and around 100 aircraft. Almost all of the aircraft loss came before the peak of the good times in 2007, and over 500 pilots (2/3 of the reduction) were lost during that same period. All while netjets continued to grow. That is poor management.

For the record, FF miles & hotel points may be a perk, but I wouldn't really care if I had to give them up during hard times, as long as management was giving up some perks too, and they return them when they start taking perks again themselves. It should be a tough time for all, but apparently it's only tough for the rank & file.

5-star hotels? What planet are you living on. I don't live in a trailer park, and I won't stay at Motel 6 or a Super 8. I expect to stay at a hotel that is somewhat comparable to how I live at home. Mostly we do, but they are typically 3 star hotels, not 5.

Crew Meals? That isn't a perk, it is a biological necessity. There is a lot of waste there, but that is mainly because the crews don't have control over ordering or canceling meals. They often order meals on a 30 minute repo from back to the US where customs will make us throw them away, or get us breakfast after we just ate at the hotel. Give the crews more control, and that waste stops. What would you suggest, that they don't feed us at all? I have news for you, it is a federal law... they either feed us, or give us the time to feed ourselves. They know full well that a heck of a lot more waste would happen by giving the crews a break during the day to go grab lunch, rather than feed us and have us keep flying.

Wow, if there was ever a point to be made you've made it for me. The company is sliding backwards, and you feel that the pilots should be paid more. They should be paid according to the business model, not the equipment they fly. If you want to make more money, go fly for a company that operates equipment with a business model that supports the income you want.

I used the points as perks tongue in cheek, but I knew some of you would take me seriously. The point of it is, that if you aren't sitting in the middle of it, you can't call the shots. Very few pilots on this board understand the financials, tax breaks or structure of a company as leadership does. How do you know that operating that airplane didn't net a profit for the company through a tax deduction just like it does for repostion flights? I don't know.. but I can tell you that crew meals didn't exist for the first 70 years of aviation and somehow those pilots seemed to survive by packing their own lunch. They must have been a tougher group.

 

[993_Pilot]

Wow, if there was ever a point to be made you've made it for me. The company is sliding backwards, and you feel that the pilots should be paid more. They should be paid according to the business model, not the equipment they fly.

Typical B19, dodging the real topic. Yes, I think the pilots should be paid more, but not because the company is sliding backwards, but rather in spite of it. I blame management when things go bad. Our previous management team shrunk the company all while the economy was good, everyone else was growing, and they had (still do) the lowest labor cost in the industry. They need to price the product or service to support the cost of doing business (including labor), not subsidize the price for the owners with pilot salarys.

If you want to make more money, go fly for a company that operates equipment with a business model that supports the income you want.

Well, the fractional industry business model does support the kind of salary that I want, when the company is run properly.

... How do you know that operating that airplane didn't net a profit for the company through a tax deduction just like it does for repostion flights? I don't know...

What an ignorant statement, it's obvious that you don't know. There are no tax deductions for reposition flights, they are merely an expense that offset the income from the revenue legs. Although they are often necessary, expenses never generate profits. In fact, they reduce the net profit or increase the net loss, as the case may be. Tax deductions and write-offs don't generate profits either, they only reduce the tax burden. While that may help the bottom line, it isn't generating profit.

... but I can tell you that crew meals didn't exist for the first 70 years of aviation and somehow those pilots seemed to survive by packing their own lunch. They must have been a tougher group.

Radios, weather radar, gps, air conditioning, etc. didn't exist at the beginning of aviation either. Should we all just go back to flying WW1 era biplanes? What, are you Amish?

 

[cougar12]

No, he Is a clueless IDIOT!