Everybody else has Unlimited Jumpseat, Not Delta

[FlyAuburn]

As for me, I appreciate all the times that DAL has gotten me home. Yeah, the rule they have sucks, but it's not their (pilots) faults. However, every once in a while, some of the captains are completely rude. I had one just last night try to make me feel like crap because I work at JB. What's up with that?
I guess this is the welcome to commuting life. It has only happen twice since I started commuting 9 months ago - I guess I shouldn't even complain. All you can do is roll with the punch, just so that I can see my kids a few hours earlier...

 

[filejw]

I read some these wt restricted comments with a little bit of a smirk cause if you are j/s on NWA and the flight is weight restricted unless you are a must ride you wouldn't get by the agent.J/S are last in that situation, all other nonrevs go first. No matter if your NWA or anybody else. The agents and crew most likely will do every thing to make the #'s work but if that doesn't work they will be pushing back with out you or me.

 

[Caveman]

Every time one of these unfair jumpseat policy debates comes up it's the same old thing. The party that isn't as accomodating as maybe they should be makes excuses. They still want/expect their unlimited ride, and they are awful sorry they can't reciprocate, but it's not their fault. There's nothing they can do about it.

Like everybody else I've watched a DAL airplane pull away from the gate with empty seats while a jumpseater was left at the gate. It sucks. You might as well beat your head against a brick wall for all the good complaining about it will do. The cold hard truth is DALPA doesn't care about you getting a ride home as long as their guys still get rides. There's no incentive to change anything. It would be nice, but they have bigger fish to fry right now. It's not fair and it's not right, but that's just the way it is. Deal with it.

(Edited for spelling.)

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Every time one of these unfair jumpseat policy debates comes up it's the same old thing. The party that isn't as accomodating as maybe they should be makes excuses. They still want/expect their unlimited ride, and they are awful sorry they can't reciprocate, but it's not their fault. There's nothing they can do about it.

Like everybody else I've watched a DAL airplane pull away from the gate with empty seats while a jumpseater was left at the gate. It sucks. You might as well beat your head against a brick wall for all the good complaining about it will do. The cold hard truth is DALPA doesn't care about you getting a ride home as long as their guys still get rides. There's no incentive to change anything. It would be nice, but they have bigger fish to fry right now. It's not fair and it's not right, but that's just the way it is. Deal with it.

(Edited for spelling.)

Caveman -

If it's just an excuse - give me your seasoned, USMC, solution to the gate agent who refuses to assign a seat to an additional jump seater? Give me the "cold hard solution" Caveman - tell me how we are going to make the agent start clicking away to make it happen? By the way - the original post to start this thread was not the online vs. offline issue - it was flow through. And if you think that ANY airline would consider an offline jump seater over their own than you are also smoking some good stuff.

So Caveman - you seem to be far beyond stoneage intelligence - what's the solution?

I think I'll go now and get ready to "unlimited ride" on our neighbors over at Airtran - oh yeah they don't have "unlimited ride" either - $25 for each extra guy, yep better than us, but not "unlimited". I guess they are they exception, because according to you guys it's just DAL who's hosed.

Got a trip to Memphis tomorrow afternoon. Maybe I'll pick up another Fedex jump seater - no recip jump seat with them until recently since 9-11, been carrying those guys all along - oh, they also dumped our employee discount shipping with them - but like you said, we don't care about those pilots - just our guys getting all those great deals with Fedex.

Hope you get the sand out,

Ben

 

[Caveman]

Caveman -

If it's just an excuse - give me your seasoned, USMC, solution to the gate agent who refuses to assign a seat to an additional jump seater? Give me the "cold hard solution" Caveman - tell me how we are going to make the agent start clicking away to make it happen? By the way - the original post to start this thread was not the online vs. offline issue - it was flow through. And if you think that ANY airline would consider an offline jump seater over their own than you are also smoking some good stuff.

So Caveman - you seem to be far beyond stoneage intelligence - what's the solution?

I think I'll go now and get ready to "unlimited ride" on our neighbors over at Airtran - oh yeah they don't have "unlimited ride" either - $25 for each extra guy, yep better than us, but not "unlimited". I guess they are they exception, because according to you guys it's just DAL who's hosed.

Got a trip to Memphis tomorrow afternoon. Maybe I'll pick up another Fedex jump seater - no recip jump seat with them until recently since 9-11, been carrying those guys all along - oh, they also dumped our employee discount shipping with them - but like you said, we don't care about those pilots - just our guys getting all those great deals with Fedex.

Hope you get the sand out,

Ben

See what I mean? Excuses. Blame the gate agent for doing their job. The policy is the problem, not the gate agents.

Here's my cold hard solution: DAL's policy stinks and DALPA doesn't care. Suck it up, quit whining about it and deal with it. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post. That clear it up for you Ben. Got the sand out of your head now?

 

[32LT10]

See what I mean? Excuses. Blame the gate agent for doing their job. The policy is the problem, not the gate agents.

Here's my cold hard solution: DAL's policy stinks and DALPA doesn't care. Suck it up, quit whining about it and deal with it. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post. That clear it up for you Ben. Got the sand out of your head now?

Let's see......How to make sure I don't get left behind with empty seats????? I know it could happen..... I know DL policy is that they only take the number of jumpseaters that they have seats for......I have all this information....I want to get home.....What can I do? Sit here and complain that an xtra airways pilot is of less importance than moi? Or......wait for it....just a bit longer.....wait.....wait. I could buy an ID90/75 and carry that in my hip pocket. Voila, I made it home and got to sit in one of those empty seats. I can now sit at home and rant about the unfairness of the world against my color coded independent contractor airline as opposed to the terminal.

There are solutions to get you home. You just have to be willing to use them.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

42 seats just left while I sit here watching the Delta MD-88 push-back. Everybody has unlimited jumpseats, which Delta enjoys off-line, but Delta screws you on the "reach-around"! I had an Extra Airlines??? pilot show before me, now I sit here for 3.5 hours till the next flight. We take unlimited Pilots, Fa's, dispatchers, mechanics, etc.

I have had 90% of the DAL capts. disregard the 1 jumpseat rule (thanks guys) because we take unlimited riders. I think we should stick to the true meaning of Recip agreement. You take 1 and we take 1, you take unlimited and we take unlimited. They sure are nice coming in our cockpit (all of them), but when it's their turn to return the favor, they smirk while they push-back leaving you at the gate after your 5 days away.

I have Delta friends (I try not to claim that in public), they're good guys, but I am just stating the truth about the Recip jumpseat agreement.

Hey Sailpilot......

I'm not sure how long you have been in this business but there was a day when we Delta Pilots couldn't even ride on our OWN jumpseat.......then in 1996, it changed........the management holds that jumpseat like an iron fist and when we go into negotiations, the company says things like....."open jumpseat?? Then you need to give up full credit deadhead!!!" They posture around it and use it as negotiating capital.......Not much we can change when the company believes they own it.......

Not much smirking happening when we leave people behind.....but with your attitude, they probably had it right!!

 

[Benjamin Dover]

See what I mean? Excuses. Blame the gate agent for doing their job. The policy is the problem, not the gate agents.

Here's my cold hard solution: DAL's policy stinks and DALPA doesn't care. Suck it up, quit whining about it and deal with it. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my first post. That clear it up for you Ben. Got the sand out of your head now?

Maybe I should have suggest that your head was up somewhere else rather than in the sand. You need to get a drug screen if you think that any airline pilot union or their negotiating reps would act any differently if they were in our shoes. Delta management absolutely holds the jump seat as a piece of negotiating capital. Do you really think that negotiating reps at your company - if you even have a union - would say - "oh yeah, give us an even bigger butt-jam on pay, work rules, sick leave, scope, etc. so that we can ensure flow through jump seat across the board" Right!

And if DALPA didn't give a sh*t, how do you we got flow through with AA and SWA or CASS here? Because mgt. here thinks we are good guys/gals? No, because despite what you think Cave-dweller, DALPA is fighting the fight behind the scenes with the company, but in case you have not paid attention, jump seat at DAL is thought of quite differently by the suits than at other places. It took like 40 years for DAL to get it for the own pilots - that attitude of jump seat "privelege" is definitely a pass down item at headquarters. I do agree with you that our policy stinks - but you're off base with the "DALPA doesn't care" comment. Easier said than done getting the policy changed - not much group hugging going on being pilots and mgt. around here.

Those are the facts dude. If it makes you feel better to bash the union or DAL pilots for not getting the policy changed go ahead. But, maybe you need to toss in the crying towel and deal with a few things yourself.

 

[Sailpilot]

Caveman -

If it's just an excuse - give me your seasoned, USMC, solution to the gate agent who refuses to assign a seat to an additional jump seater?

Ben

Not the case Ben. The agent is a friend and deals with me every week. He has put me on several flights that the CA said "sure get on". He walked me down the jetway to talk to the CA in person (his idea). CA said no, I turned and walked back in the terminal. Talked to Mark (gate agent) about his kids and he asked about my little ones. He's not the evil gate agent you have dealt with in the past. Hope that clears the air.

Oh ya, the reason why I even started this thread was because I was bored with 3.5 hours at the airport. Airport has free wireless, and my typing fingers needed a work out.

One more time: I don't have a problem with the DAL pilots. I am just stating that if they take one, everybody else should just take one DAL pilot. If he shows up behind the 135 guys that will never be able to recip. Sorry dude, "we already have a jumpseater... sure the AA, CO, SWA, etc. pilots and FA's can go!"

In closing, thank you to all the DAL pilots that have given me a ride over the years. I would also like to say thank you to every pilot group that advocated for the unlimited jumpseat policy.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Not the case Ben. The agent is a friend and deals with me every week. He has put me on several flights that the CA said "sure get on". He walked me down the jetway to talk to the CA in person (his idea). CA said no, I turned and walked back in the terminal. Talked to Mark (gate agent) about his kids and he asked about my little ones. He's not the evil gate agent you have dealt with in the past. Hope that clears the air.

Oh ya, the reason why I even started this thread was because I was bored with 3.5 hours at the airport. Airport has free wireless, and my typing fingers needed a work out.

One more time: I don't have a problem with the DAL pilots. I am just stating that if they take one, everybody else should just take one DAL pilot. If he shows up behind the 135 guys that will never be able to recip. Sorry dude, "we already have a jumpseater... sure the AA, CO, SWA, etc. pilots and FA's can go!"

In closing, thank you to all the DAL pilots that have given me a ride over the years. I would also like to say thank you to every pilot group that advocated for the unlimited jumpseat policy.

In that case, this CA is an a**hole and gives us all a bad name. I had hoped that those types had taken the early retirement $$ and left. Sorry from all of us. I've never personally seen it happen that way - only the reverse where the agent gives the stiff-arm.

As to your "eye for an eye" argument - do you really think that is the answer? Believe it or not DALPA is trying to get the COMPANY policy changed, and absolutely is one of the "pilot groups that advocates unlimited jumpseat policy" as you said. But if you read my answer to caveman, it's just not that simple to change here at DAL. How will your "1 for 1" solution change things? Ask the freight dogs their opinion on riding on Delta or any airline without the opportunity to recip. - my guess is the FEDEX guys who live in ATL and commute to MEM like DAL pretty well. Don't see any threads on here bashing FEDEX ALPA and others.

So, sorry for your long airport sit. Looks like our CA could have helped you out but chose to quote the "book" instead. I hope those commuter "unfriendly" guys are getting fewer and more far between.

 

[Caveman]

Once more, Ben, since you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept. My position is simple: There are flawed policies out there. They are unfair. Not everyone reciprocates equally. There's nothing that can be done about it. Complaining is futile. Get on with your lives.

You seem to think that I'm complaining about DAL. I'm not. Granted, I don't like DAL's policy and I believe it could be changed if DALPA really wanted it changed, but they don't. Therefore, I have two choices. Bitch and moan, or just move on. I choose to move on and I recommend everybody else does too. That's all I said and nothing more. All this other crap you're coming up with is your own imagination about what you think I said.

 

[Sailpilot]

Ben,

Thank you for your reply. To be honest, I don't think we should go 1 for 1. I think that would be a change in the wrong direction. I simply was making the point of the agreement (as with most contracts) was pretty open to interpretation. Between the 2 contracts the only mentioxn to limit is on the JB side. This of course states we take unlimited. I have both the pdf. files on my computer and would love to post them. With so many sea lawyers around I think I'll save myself the headache and the battle.

To the DAL pilots, good luck with your future vote. (for those that read to much into everything, I truly meant this statement without any sarcasm).
Thank you for the many rides in the past, and I would welcome DAL aboard anytime.

 

[Sailpilot]

Sorry the Smirk was as I asked the capt for the ride and explained that I have been allowed before.

quote]

The smirk was undoubtedly because of the "I have been allowed before". Dont try to get someone to break a company regulation by telling them "well, the last guy did it".
Anyone else see this my way?

I hate to admit this but, you are right about your observation. Your statement reminded me about a time that a local cop in OK city (Prior to 911) told me the same thing about his weapon aboard my aircraft. "Everyone else lets me", was his statement. He had zero need to carry the weapon and not check it. My response, "just because the last guy didn't do his job, don't assume I won't do mine."

As you can see, I have changed my opinion on this subject. Yes, he held me to the "book" on this, that's his choice, he's the Capt. and I respect that. I thank the many other guys that, shall we say "read from the Book of commuting".

Thanks for your comment, believe it or not, it opened a different view that I wasn't thinking about.

Besides: I was just p!ssed at the time. A few beers later and the kids using me as a jungle-gym for 2 days, I'm good.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Once more, Ben, since you don't seem to be able to grasp the concept. My position is simple: There are flawed policies out there. They are unfair. Not everyone reciprocates equally. There's nothing that can be done about it. Complaining is futile. Get on with your lives.

You seem to think that I'm complaining about DAL. I'm not. Granted, I don't like DAL's policy and I believe it could be changed if DALPA really wanted it changed, but they don't. Therefore, I have two choices. Bitch and moan, or just move on. I choose to move on and I recommend everybody else does too. That's all I said and nothing more. All this other crap you're coming up with is your own imagination about what you think I said.

Caveman,

So, that's "all you said and nothing more" Caveman and the rest of the "crap" I just imagined? Imagine this when I re-read your first post where you said "The cold hard truth is DALPA doesn't care about you getting a ride home as long as their guys still get rides." Hard to miss-read this line unless someone edited your post.

This is where the cold hard truth is that you just don't get it Caveman - I've tried to explain to no avail. Not sure where you get your evidence that "it could be changed if DALPA really wanted it changed", but you're just wrong. It took a big effort by our jumpseat committee (yes, we have one of those) to get DAL to get online with CASS and after much work somehow mgt. agreed to AA and SWA for flowthrough - not sure how the company blessed those two but it's a start. Currently we are not getting anything from the company, j.s., lingering grievances, etc. until we cave on the TA. But my point is, if DALPA was really so one-way about this, wouldn't it have been easier to not even fight the fight for CASS or flow-through?

I agree with you that the DAL JS policy sucks but you're way off base when you blame the union for just letting it happen. I am sure I still fail to "grasp your concept" and if it makes you feel better to continue to believe that unlimited js is an easy fix but DALPA is the bad guy, so be it. I think most others get the picture. I think I will take your adivice and move on. Have a great day!

Ben

 

[Caveman]

Nevermind. We're beating a dead horse here. You have a good day too.

 

[Lear70]

Let's see......How to make sure I don't get left behind with empty seats????? I know it could happen..... I know DL policy is that they only take the number of jumpseaters that they have seats for......I have all this information....I want to get home.....What can I do? Sit here and complain that an xtra airways pilot is of less importance than moi? Or......wait for it....just a bit longer.....wait.....wait. I could buy an ID90/75 and carry that in my hip pocket. Voila, I made it home and got to sit in one of those empty seats. I can now sit at home and rant about the unfairness of the world against my color coded independent contractor airline as opposed to the terminal.

Nice try, but you obviously have NO clue about Delta pass costs. Writing a pass on Delta is more expensive than ANY OTHER CARRIER OUT THERE.

I commute weekly back and forth from BNA to ATL, it is the worst commute I have EVER experienced in 7 years of airline life. Worse than when I was based in DFW, IND, JFK, BOS, or even MCO. Why? Because only Delta services it non-stop.

So, I get bumped at least once each commute attempt. Takes me on average 8-12 hours in airports each way. Drive? $50 in gas each way. $400 a month, no thanks. Write a pass? Sure. Delta round trip ID90 cost including fees: $154.37 or $1,200+ a month.

Delta Jumpseat agreement sucks. Period. B*tching won't help. Unlike Caveman, I believe change can be made, but not until it's made to be an issue with DALPA; until then, nothing will change.

32L10, yes, there are other alternatives. My commute usually two-legs now back through Northwest country (MEM) or to a Southwest station on airTran 1st leg, NWA or SWA 2nd leg. Haven't missed one yet doing this but, again, it's 8-12 hours in an airport spent NEEDLESSLY after an airplane leaves with empty seats.

 

[IAHERJ]

Don't miss using them at all to get to ATL from AUS. My commute to EWR from AUS is 10 times easier despite the longer flight than trying to jumpseat on Delta to ATL. I carried 2 Delta guys in the jumpseat of the little 737-500 several weeks ago from BOS to EWR. Good guys, and I was glad we were able to squeeze them into our 2 jumpseats. The second guy who thought he was SOL due to the other DAL pilot was pleasently surprised to find out that we could accomodate him in the small 2nd seat up front. He thanked us over and over and I wanted to tell him just how many times I was hosed at Airtran due to DAL's policy but decided to just keep quiet. Glad I did as they had found out that morning that a TA had been reached and they were worried about reading the highlights and obviously had more important things on their minds.

I've been hearing for years how they were going to keep fighting to open up the seats in the back etc. In typical Delta style they have their own term for "unlimited jumpseat" that is more commonly associated with moving from a feeder airline to the mainline partner then back again during a down time but what else is new. I'll be pleasantly surprised to see some more airlines on the flow-back/through or whatever list. Not holding my breath and honestly glad to say that I really don't care that much anymore.

IAHERJ

 

[32LT10]

So, I get bumped at least once each commute attempt. Takes me on average 8-12 hours in airports each way. Drive? $50 in gas each way. $400 a month, no thanks. Write a pass? Sure. Delta round trip ID90 cost including fees: $154.37 or $1,200+ a month.

A zed fare is $154? That seems really steep. Again I don't commute but the last ZED fare I bought on AA was really cheap for the distance traveled.

 

[Lear70]

I agree, I about fell down when the nice lady at the pass bureau window told me the fare. I was expecting $30-$45 each way.

DAL has some of the stingiest pass reciprocity in the business, they don't give us ZED fares I believe, I think it was an ID90 based on a $950 Y-fare ($95) plus about $65 in fees and taxes. Didn't get ZED when I was with PCL either and we had the same pass bennies that Northwest mainline pilots did because we were, at one time, wholly-owned and they never changed the pass setup. Tried to write a DAL pass last year and it was going to be almost $200 bucks. Took SWA instead.

Our SWA passes run us about $30 each way. One of these days, either Southwest with their large BNA presence (even though ATL has a lot of delays) or airTran are going to start running BNA-ATL... I'll be SO happy when they do!

 

[D'Angelo]

I guess it's easy to be smirky when you've made it where you want to be.
I suppose they feel that there is no need to reciprocate. After all, their negotiating capital need only be spent on themselves.

No wonder this profession is in tatters.

Profession in tatters? Pulease there are plenty of people like myself livin it up! Unlimited jumpseat is a privledge not a right. If management chooses not to extend it then too bad. If delta needs a little extra negotiating capital for themselves im all for them doin what they gotta do. If its getting that hard to commute theres a fantasic deal over at uhaul ive heard. Actually I think there should be a charge after the 1st jumpseater. Good way to make some extra dollas. If there are 2 jumpseats installed then they should charge after the 2nd jumpseater. Most non revs have to pay some type of fee now a days. Jumpseating should be no free ride.

 

[Mgmt1Pilot]

If we wait for ALPA to help in anyway, we'll all be 6 feet under. The goons have already sold out our pensions, why would they care about your js.

What angers me more than if DL will give me a js is how CASS has given commuters the right (in their minds) to bypass the Captain for a thank you. Just yesterday I gave an AA pilot a ride without having seen this guy. They think if they get a ticket at the gate for a cabin seat they don't need to thank the crew (Capt.). He wouldn't have had that free seat in the cabin without said Captains approval. Etiquette guys!!!!

 

[PHX767]

On the way home yesterday (on a full fare ticket), I saw an obvious jumpseater in the front of the plane patiently waiting for the crew to come out so he could thank them for the ride. Very old school, very classy.

Back when DL was first able to take jumpseaters again - '96/'97? Anyway, I will always remember the first DL L-1011 I rode on. It was out of MCO early one morning, the agent had told me that since I did not have a sport coat or uniform jacket (the requirement at the time for DL) I was not going to be able to ride the j/s. I was wearing a tie with dress shirt and slacks. The CA came by, I introduced myself and told him the story. He went down the jetbridge, came back with his uniform coat over his arm, told me to put it on. Then he marched me over to the agent, and said, "satisfied?" and without further ado took me by the arm and escorted me to the cockpit. I will never forget that guy. He told me something like, "Son, the world is full of people like that agent. We pilots have to stick together."

So when ever some one tells one of these "the DL CA smirked.." stories I feel compelled to tell mine. And oh by the way, I was an FO at a regional at the time, flying those funny quaint old planes with props on the engines.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

New School: Jumpseater enters the cockpit and says " I guess I'm riding with you......."

OR

Old School: Jumpseaters says hello to FA and asks if s/he can approach or enter the flightdeck.

Jumpseater observes atmosphere on the flightdeck and waits for an opportunity to say hello.

Captian/FO/SRO recognizes jumpseater.

Jumpseater introduces himself/herself with eye contact, hellos and a handshake for all starting with Captain.

Jumpseater makes an explicit request to jumpseat to destination as he hands all documents to the CA.

Captain approves (99.9%) or denies. (.01%)

Jumpseater says thank you and coordinates seat assignment with CA, FA or Gate Agent.

After the flight jumpseater says thank you.




Jumpseating is the last precious perk we got in this ever changing industry. We have to protect it and treat it as so...

We cannot assume we are jumpseating.
We must respect CA authority.
We cannot game the system, like sitting in the flightdeck without CASS verification.
Our behavior must be beyond reproach.

The cost and QOL benefits are too good to screw this up.....

 

[D'Angelo]

The best thing to do is if the .01% denies you for no good reason if there are open seats in the back pull out an ID-90 go get a seat anyway and show him the pass and say ill be sitting in the back eating your peanuts and if you dont like it you can kiss my R&B butt baby!

 

[General Lee]

If the TA passes......

If the TA passes, then we go unlimited jumpseats for Alaska, Northwest, and Continental in June I believe. We then go unlimited for United and USAir on Jan 1st of 07. Does that include their regionals? I don't know.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Benjamin Dover]

I believe change can be made, but not until it's made to be an issue with DALPA; until then, nothing will change.

.

Like Caveman, you don't get the picture. Why do you claim DALPA is the villian here? No jumpseat priv. at all on DAL airplanes until '97 (contract '96) Finally got it on that contract at the negotiating table - not just through management generousity.

DALPA was able to get the company to give on CASS and AA/SWA js flowthrough - not volunteered by mgt. as just being good guys I'm sure. Nothing new lately because since we're the bad guys at the company now, nothing is for free now.

So, what do you suggest? If the TA get's sent back, have our negotiators go back and ask for an even crappier deal on something else in the contract to ensure unlimitted js for everyone. Trust me, even though it doesn't cost a dime, js is a management bargaining chip at DAL - always has been. I doubt pilots at SWA and others took a pay or work rule hit to make unlimited js happen. Most companies have a more reasonable man theory about it. Not at DAL.

What about the butt-jam on pass costs at DAL - that DALPA's fault too?

I am sure this all fell on deaf ears with you and I am just must making excuses, but I recognize your lack of clue as to the relations between DALPA - specifically DALPA jumpseat comittee - and company/flight ops 4th floor types I think your "Murphy's law of logical argument" applies to you if you really think pressure on, or "made to be an issue with" DALPA is going to spur any change. Change will come only when the company agrees on the value of unlimitted js - no chance of that concession until we cave on this or a future TA I'm afraid.

Bottom line, our policy sucks, but it is not due to DALPA apathy. I'm sure you and some ohers on this thread will remain unconvinced. Fine - sure would like for you to actually talk to one of our DALPA committee guys before forming the opinion though. They are good guys who are not so one-way as some here have implied. JS is a much bigger hurdle here than other places. That's just the way it is. Fire away,

Ben

 

[32LT10]

If the TA passes, then we go unlimited jumpseats for Alaska, Northwest, and Continental in June I believe. We then go unlimited for United and USAir on Jan 1st of 07. Does that include their regionals? I don't know.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Why 1/07 for ua and us? Both of those carriers give you unlimited now. I don't think NWA or CAL do that for DL.

 

[Caveman]

Ben,

I gracefully bowed out of this conversation leaving you with the last word. If you want to keep banging your drum, that's your business, but leave me out of it.

 

[Lear70]

Like Caveman, you don't get the picture.

I respectfully disagree. My belief is that it is people like YOU who don't get it.

Why do you claim DALPA is the villian here? No jumpseat priv. at all on DAL airplanes until '97 (contract '96) Finally got it on that contract at the negotiating table - not just through management generousity.

Whoa there buddy, you're putting words in my mouth.

I never said DALPA was the "villain", I simply said until it they make it a non-negotiable issue, nothing will change.

Trust me, even though it doesn't cost a dime, js is a management bargaining chip at DAL - always has been.

I don't disagree with you. I absolutely believe mgmt is using it as a bargaining chip.

DALPA MUST take it off the table by saying, "This is a non-negotiating point. It's unlimited or the discussion on THIS or ANY OTHER ISSUE is over; it costs you nothing; it will NOT be negotiated for".

What about the butt-jam on pass costs at DAL - that DALPA's fault too?

Again, I never said any of this was DALPA's fault; I said that DALPA is the only way to affect change. We certainly have no OTHER way of affecting change from the outside, now do we?

I am sure this all fell on deaf ears with you and I am just must making excuses

Yes, you are.

but I recognize your lack of clue as to the relations between DALPA - specifically DALPA jumpseat comittee - and company/flight ops 4th floor types

Your OPINION of my "lack of clue" (where the hell did you learn to write, anyway?) is simply your opinion. Many others share my views.

Change will come only when the company agrees on the value of unlimitted js - no chance of that concession until we cave on this or a future TA I'm afraid.

Now YOU show YOUR lack of any recognizable clue. The company will NEVER agree on unlimited J/S being a no-cost item. They will CONTINUE to use it as a bargaining chip as long as YOU let them.

Bottom line, our policy sucks, but it is not due to DALPA apathy. I'm sure you and some ohers on this thread will remain unconvinced.

I never said DALPA was apathetic. Why don't you actually READ what I write instead of reading WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR...

sure would like for you to actually talk to one of our DALPA committee guys before forming the opinion though. They are good guys who are not so one-way as some here have implied.

Again, I never said anyone was "one-way", I simply said it's not at the top of your issues and, until it is, nothing will change. Your management certainly won't just volunteer it...

I'm pretty hard-core when it comes to unreasonable management stances but I also have other businesses to fall back on and don't mind casting "no" votes. Do I think you should vote "No" just because your T.A. doesn't have unlimited j/s? Of course not. I DO, however, believe that your NC could and should have, early on, made it a point not to continue until you match the rest of the industry on unlimited j/s use.

It shouldn't be a negotiating point, and I would bet my next paycheck that if DALPA took the stance I'm advocating, mgmt would back off and pick another battle.

Your pass rates are another issue. I personally believe ALL the airlines should start charging DELTA employees what they charge US. That's about the only way for your management to have ANY incentive to change the a*s-raping for passes (when mgmt types get raped trying to go anywhere DAL doesn't go - not to try to screw the line employees), but I digress...

 

[Benjamin Dover]

DALPA MUST take it off the table by saying, "This is a non-negotiating point. It's unlimited or the discussion on THIS or ANY OTHER ISSUE is over; it costs you nothing; it will NOT be negotiated for".


I DO, however, believe that your NC could and should have, early on, made it a point not to continue until you match the rest of the industry on unlimited j/s use.

It shouldn't be a negotiating point, and I would bet my next paycheck that if DALPA took the stance I'm advocating, mgmt would back off and pick another battle.

quote]

Fantasy land. You ever sit there at the table, especially at our table? In case you missed it, we're in bankruptcy. My guess is the NC was pretty busy trying to get us some better work rules, etc. than UAL & USAIR. Just put JS at the top of the list and walk away until it comes off the mgt. table? Right. Dream on brother.

Maybe you’re right though - scope/70 seaters was supposed to be our line in the sand and didn't happen. Surely they could have muscled js out of the discussion.

Sorry I jumped back into this thread. Sorry too Caveman for draggin' you back in, pretty lame on my part. Should have left it at "agree to disagree". Appreciate your service by the way.

Out,

Ben