Ever wondered about banner towing?

[avbug]

I don't know if I've ever heard a Pawnee called "powerful."

Powerful like a pawnee.

Quick like a donkey.

Strong like an accountant.

Just struck me as funny...

 

[LearAv8r]

Agree, the 180hp or 260hp (King Kong cub... N74c) super cub is the way to go. Not so sure about the powerful Pawnee though.

 

[FlyingSkip]

Yeah, where I used to fly we had Cubs running either 160s or 180s, and then a Pawnee that had been re-engined down to a 160. Wow. That thing SUCKED!!! I flew Pawnees dusting that had 235s or 260s and they were never more than just a little under-powered...imagine trying to fly on a high DA day, full fuel to fly a 3 hr banner and everything sitting behind a dinky 160hp plant! Climb rate? Yeah right!

AvBug nailed it---anytime somebody talks about flying in any form being dangerous, they must not be doing it right. There's always an element of inherent danger in any activity, from walking down a flight of stairs to taking a flight cross country, but if you eliminate all of the "variable" dangers that you can control, ie decision making, fuel, maneuvers IAW POH/FAR/SOPs, etc then you should look at flying as no different than any other activity in your life. Banner towing SHOULD be some of the most boring flying you'll ever do in your entire life---but most people don't do it that way!

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Banner towing is more on the fringe. You get a waiver from the FAA that allows you to fly dangerously low. You try to stick with as much class G as possible and rarely use the radio. You never climb above 1000'.

Sounds like flying west along the southern Long Island beaches enroute to Manhattan for a city tour. This requires that you stay at or below class B at 500' along the length of the shore and up to about 800-1000' up and down the river itself. You're also talking to NY Appch, JFK, Hudson CTAF, and LGA.

I never considered these as "dangerously low" altitiudes.

 

[mcjohn]

Banner towing is dangerous and low altitude is a factor. I agree with flyingskip and avbug to a certain degree. Banner towing SHOULD be the most boring aviation job you'll do and it is. When flying banners, complacentcy is the problem. All that boredom and over powered super light planes don't mix too well. Next thing you know you're doing steep turns right above the trees and having a blast and then SMACK...you're dead. It SHOULD be boring and if you're having too much fun your days are probably numbered.

The Pinnacle pilot who posted above doesn't know his head from a hole in the ground. Calling a Pawnee powerful (especially the ones used for towing) show flagshipper's lack of knowledge. His statement that Paramount kills a pilot every year is typical of the chodes that are always trying to call the FAA on people. Paramount has been in business for 62 years and have never had a fatality. I'm not saying they have a stellar safety record or anything but his statement couldn't be further from the truth.

Pilots kill people every year. It's not the plane or the company. Paramount is SUPER old school but they ALWAYS respect the PICs decisions. At least now they do, the old man is not running the show like he used to. His son in law's in charge now and he'll say over and over again to you, "If you're not comfortable with anything then stay on the ground and we'll make it right."

And I must state:
Over powered cubs are the safest. Pawnees are not.

Hi Skip...good to hear from you. Where have you been? Haven't seen you at PPW lately.

 

[NotFurloughed]

Safe...

I've done towing and skywriting....both are as safe as you (and the company) make them....

I would never do it if I weren't confident in the equipment, the set up and the operation.

Towing large signs (e.g. 40 x 80 or 50 x 120) is a matter of aircraft choice. All the airplanes I've flown have been specifically built for aerial advertising.

Super cruisers with 180+ H.P. and wing extensions, Bird Dogs with 260+ h.p., 260 Pawnees and 600 AgCats, as well as the occasional Citabria. All performed beautifully. And in over 600 hours of doing it part time never had more than a small problem here or there.

I think the safety boils down to training and maintenance, just like any flying job.

Know your limits and stick to them and it can be a lot of boring fun!

 

[momalley81]

Had a few minor problems in my time towing, nothing I would consider inherantly dangerous. Yeah, if the motor quit you were going for a swim, that's what life jackets are for. I felt more comfortable with my chances ditching off the shore than when I was flying freight over the Blue Ridge mountians in a single (yes at night and IFR)

AND- it bears worth noting. Nobody EVER died working for Paramount. In the past they may have bent a little more metal than their contemporaries, but they've been cleaning things up the last few years, and I'd put their safety record up against anybody elses.

The 150 Pawnee was a good towplane, the 235 was better, but was heavier and burned more gas. OH- and you couldn't remove a door. A 150 re-engined for 180 was a great tow plane. You just couldn't fly it like a Super Cub, you had to fly it like a Pawnee. It had a LOT better roll authority than the Super Cub with 4' wing extensions, or a stock J3 or stock PA12.

That's just my take though.

Oh- while were comparing- biggest was 55' x 100' (NJA- you flew for aerial sign before they got bought for VanWagner? Ever do time in NJ?)

 

[NotFurloughed]

Oh- while were comparing- biggest was 55' x 100' (NJA- you flew for aerial sign before they got bought for VanWagner? Ever do time in NJ?)

Actually, the biggest we towed with the 'Cat was 60 x 120, it was for Savings Bank Life Insurance....aircraft and operation was AVIAD...they moved from MA and I think they're based in SoCal and Mexico now. Just acquired one of the AgCats up in NH - for skywriting, so I'm back flying the round engines and contributing to global warming on my days off from my "real" job.

 

[svcta]

I always towed in PA-18s, both 160 and 180. I've never considered any of these(or any airplane I've flown, for that matter) to be overpowered. Until I can accellerate vertically with a 60x120 billboard behind me I don't think "overpowered" is possible. Banner towing in the summer was some of the most fun I've ever had flying. Never worked near a beach and we used 7 foot letters so I never towed below 1000'. We used to tie our banners up in bags and tie them to the bottom of the cubs to transport them around. Looked like Super Cubs with torpedoes. Spent 2 years in cubs and barely ever topped 1000', towing or just getting to a site, and I just don't think it was ever unsafe.

If you think 500' over water just off shore from the beach is dangerous, well, I can't explain it to you. When you're over water, in my opinion, 10,000' is the same as 1'. You're getting wet, wither way. But in the right airplane you could shed a banner and make the beach(or get really close) in 500' from what I've seen.

Towing is as safe as you make it, like every other kind of flying. I would never do it in anything less than a super cub or for the right guy.

Towing is one of those jobs that allows(forces, really) you to completely explore the range of the envelope of a particular airplane. It's not for everybody, but I'm a much better, safer, and more confident pilot for it. Besides, all that tailwheel time has opened most of the doors to some of the really cool flying I get to do in my spare time today.

Cornball alert:::::Fondest flying memory: Summer days in a super cub with the door down and the window up, freshly cut grass runway, and someone else buying the gas. It's amazing how many pilots out there just don't get it.

 

[NJA bound]

Cornball alert:::::Fondest flying memory: Summer days in a super cub with the door down and the window up, freshly cut grass runway, and someone else buying the gas. It's amazing how many pilots out there just don't get it.

Aw man dude, you're killing me, I miss those days. Think I'm going to be calling Jim Jr. soon, got to get back in a cub this summer, make some extra cash on those two weeks off every month.