Ever been charged with a violation?

[Drifter]

I'm just wondering if anyone has ever officially violated a reg or if you know someone who did. If so, could you share that experience. Tell us what you did and what kind of punishment you received from the FAA. I am very curious.

 

[aero99]

I don't think your gonna get many responses to your question...but avbug might have a monkey story for you.....

 

[Drifter]

I'm not trying to get anybody to testify against themselves. Be as vague as you want about the details but I was just wondering about the actual reg that was broken and what the penalty for it was. Or if somebody knows a website with this sort of info, that would be great too. Thanks.

 

[mpower]

which reg did you buddy break?!

 

[Drifter]

My buddy was flying just a bit too low one day. No idea what the penalty for that is yet.

 

[bobbysamd]

Regs bust

Tell your "friend" to call AOPA and (1) get advice and (2) get a recommendation for a good aviation attorney. Your "friend" should not appear at a FSDO to answer any violation, surrender his logbook, surrender his certificates, or otherwise deal with FAA without competent counsel.

Best of luck to your "friend."

 

[Drifter]

My friend has done all of what you mentioned Bobby. Thanks for the advice. Just waiting now. FAA sure does take their time. Say what kind of paralegal are you if you don't mind me asking?

 

[wingnutt]

hey there,

i was very good friends with a flight instructor back in 2000 and he was with a new student at the time, somehow or another (while in Class B) they did similar and blew completely thru their assigned altitude. i dont remember the exact specs on what happened, but suffice it to say, they were too low. the only punishment that occurred was to the CFI and he got a letter (Letter of Reprimand?) that was placed in his file. unfortunately this held him back from getting a job for a few months more than what it was supposed to take. this was back in the days of 1200 and 100 you get hired by a regional. he ended up getting on with ACA about 1500 total and was honest with them about the situation the minute he walked into the interview. this is not to say he was so forthcoming in the first 5 interviews he had, until he found out they knew about it a few days after their interview.

moral...dont hide it, they will find it

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I know of a good number of guys who got caught up because they overflew an AD (due to some pretty crappy stuff). Anyhow, we have had a LOT of chats with the feds recently about this sort of stuff, and it's pretty simple.

First, if they contact you to find stuff out, they already know more than enough to hurt you. They don't go fishing by sending you a letter or chatting on the phone. Second, if they request an informal meeting, it is just that, and the last thing they want to see is a lawyer (they don't bring thiers--don't bring yours). For the most part, they have a lot of leverage in the punishment, and that means that cooperation is a HUGE help. For the most part, they do the informal meeting and a punishment is decided.

If you're decent to them, they'll be decent to you (duh). The most common thing our guys do is you hand them your certificate, and ask them to keep it in thier desk for a while. Next to that, our FSDO required our guys to teach a class on ADs to all the other employees of the FBO and thier students (with the feds there). Kinda childish really, but at least the feds got to learn a lot more about us and the way we do things, and we got to learn a LOT more about the enforcement process, as well as some seriously wacked stuff about Mx regs... I'm still trying to figure out how an inoperative nav light makes an aircraft un-dispatcheable during the day--without an A&Ps deferment. But, c'est la vie.

Dan

 

[172driver]

If it wasnt a terrible infraction, your buddy may be able to request a 709 ride instead of the violation. This doesn't go on his record. If it was really bad, he should bring his lawyer. If it was somewhere in between, not absolutely terrible, leave the lawyer at home. One of the criteria the FAA uses to decide on the severity of the punishment is whether or not the pilot is 'compliant' when dealing with the process. Bringing a lawyer doesn't seem to demonstrate compliance and the FAA may be offended. They have many options for enforcement, most of them mild and either don't go on your record or are removed after 24 months. I would go into the FSDO and beg for mercy...if he wasn't flying under powerlines or 100 ft from houses or something.

Bottom line is that they can and will do as they please. Much of it depends on the pilot's attitude. Eat crow. Leave the lawyer behind.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Very surprised nobody mentioned the NASA form. Fill out a NASA form and send it certified mail, return reciept requested within 10 days of the occurrence. There are multiple links on the web to the Aviation Safety Reporting System, ASRS for short.

As I understand it, the NASA form shows a compliance oriented attitude and is intended to improve aviation safety. It is confidential and nothing on that form will be used to prosecute the pilot.

The effect is a waiver of the FAA's punitive action, although the pilot's record will still show the FAA's action. For example, if the FAA requested a 60 day suspension, the record would show the determination, but the licenses would not be actually suspended.

Flying too low could mean many things. Was it a willful violation, or an accidental one? What are the mitigating factors, if any?

I've found the FAA to be very reasonable with private pilots and instructors. In most cases I agreed with the FAA's actions once I knew all the facts.

 

[bobbysamd]

609 (709) rides

Drifter, check your PMs.

Since when does a 609 ride NOT go into your file? A 609 ride is an FAA FSDO re-examination practical for some or all of your operating privileges. I'd hate for some airline H.R. recruiting conehead to run across that during a pre-employment background check. In fact, we had a poster from several months ago who had to take a 609 ride because someone in his school questioned the conduct of instrument rating practicals conducted by the examiner at the poster's school. Every graduate was 609'd. Surely, the record of those rides had to have been placed in their FAA airman files.

The FAA will use a 609 threat as an intimidation tool. I went to the Orlando FSDO to renew my CFI ten years ago. The ASI was asking me all kinds of questions that seemed irrelevant to renewing my ticket based on activity. I asked why she needed to know some of the information. She then said she could order a 609 ride for me if I would not be "compliant." That was outrageous. I had renewed my CFI based on activity twice at the SDL FSDO and was always treated very courteously and devoid of hostility.

I see nothing the matter with bringing your lawyer with you to the FAA. Just because you have representation doesn't mean that you are not "compliant." Unless, the FAA's idea of "compliant" means allowing it to stick it up your fanny while you bend over. In other words, work with the FAA (it's here to help, of course!) but don't let it intimidate you.

Every pilot should read Practical Aviation Law by J. Scott Hamilton, ISBN: 0813818176. Also, read this series of articles on Avweb on the FAA enforcement process.

 

[Simon Says]

Bring a lawyer, Bring a lawyer, and Bring a lawyer. The FAA is not there to help. They are there to insure the safety of the skies and if you are explaining something to them somehow they think that you were unsafe. DO NOT BELIEVE AN 'INFORMAL MEETING' IS NOT AN OFFICIAL MEETING. Get in touch with AOPA and defend your actions. Do not help them with any part of the investigation process without proper representation.

I have been there and done that. The FAA used to intimidate me, but now I see most of them as a bunch of bullies that will back down at the smell of a lawyer unless they have iron clad evidence that will clip your wings. And if they had iron clad evidence they would not be talking to you unless it is the punishment phase of the whole process.

Did I say Bring a lawyer.

 

[aggiepilot87]

My buddy was flying just a bit too low one day. No idea what the penalty for that is yet.

Can you elaborate a little on your buddy's flight - near houses, people, practice, fooling around, who saw him, etc?

best of luck to your buddy... I vote for the lawyer. Too many loose cannons in federal service, in my experience.

 

[jetdriven]

hey a 709 ride does go in your file, as its a matter of record. A 709 is a retake of your ride (CFI, ATP, whatever). I have one in my file. I was charged with a violation and my lawyer got them to drop it cold.

"Second, if they request an informal meeting, it is just that, and the last thing they want to see is a lawyer (they don't bring thiers--don't bring yours). For the most part, they have a lot of leverage in the punishment, and that means that cooperation is a HUGE help. For the most part, they do the informal meeting and a punishment is decided. "

Not bringing a lawyer to an informal conference is a HUGE mistake. THere were two inspectors and two FAA lawyers sitting there waiting to write down everything I said.
be careful and get some good counsel. PM me for the number of my lawyer. he's the best, as he worked for the FAA for several years and knows their tricks. good luck.

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

Drifter,

Flying to low in a 1946 Champ alot less than 1000 feet over a strip of conjested land between two lakes less than one block wide witnessed by two rockie cops in 1986 would have gotten you between 60 and 180 days suspension. I saw the FAA lawyers guide book myself. He gave me my choice. I took 60 days. His story was Elizabeth Dole, his boss, was cracking down and he could not just give me a civil penalty. Back then the FAA was definately not "kinder and gentler". Yes I was stupid. Had a girl in back with a camera who wanted a picture of Paul Bunyun and Babe the Blue Ox statute. That was 14 yeays ago, now your milage may very. The things guys will do for the opposite sex. Geeezzz.

KlingonLRDRVR

P.S. I did the informal conference route. Quess who the FAA sent up for the conference. Yes he was an FAA Regional Office attorney. I recommend calling the FAA dude handling the case and ask him piont blank what is the penalty going to be if you don't bring an attorney in. If you do so nice he will likely tell you. That is assuming that there is is no geting out of your fix. Attorneys can't always perform miricles and you just heard that from one.

 

[Drifter]

Ok here's the story... A particular flight instructor was on the outskirts of a town... the instructor pulled the throttle to simulate and engine failure... the student turned toward a soccer field (which was on the edge of town) and tried to make the field. Of course the student sucked at it so the instructor went around and demo'd into the same field... after that they climbed up again and got the student to do it successfully. At no time were they below 700 AGL. Just as it happened, there were un-noticed kids on this field playing soccer and their moms called and complained. Also there happened to be an FAA employee of some sort who recognized the paint scheme on the aircraft and through his own investigation found out who the instructor and student were. The student was questioned and cleared of any wrong-doing. However the instructor was investigated and recieved a letter stating that the investigation is over and that the file is being sent to Kansas Legal Council (whatever that means). The instructor has had a lawyer the whole time and has complied with everything the FAA has asked for. This was quite some time ago and the instructor still has not heard whether there was a violation or not. The waiting is starting to become an annoyance (to say the least).

 

[414Flyer]

Drifter,

Flying to low in a 1946 Champ alot less than 1000 feet over a strip of conjested land between two lakes less than one block wide witnessed by two rockie cops in 1986 would have gotten you between 60 and 180 days suspension. I saw the FAA lawyers guide book myself. He gave me my choice. I took 60 days. His story was Elizabeth Dole, his boss, was cracking down and he could not just give me a civil penalty. Back then the FAA was definately not "kinder and gentler". Yes I was stupid. Had a girl in back with a camera who wanted a picture of Paul Bunyun and Babe the Blue Ox statute. That was 14 yeays ago, now your milage may very. The things guys will do for the opposite sex. Geeezzz.

KlingonLRDRVR

Sounds like you must have been over Brainerd.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

Drifter, If your friend is wondering if he has something in his file then tell him to go to the FSDO and ask an inspector to look it up. It's all on a computer in the FSDO and they can show it to him very easily. Any pilot has the right to see what's in their own file.

 

[Simon Says]

414 and Drifter,

Being a responsible Feeder pilot for a particular Major out of MSP, I would have to say that Babe the Blue Ox and Paul Bunyan are on the Centerline for Runway 31 at Bemidji MN.