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Even Powell admits he *ucked up!

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Just noticed this...

Sample of 350driver's credibility. His long post above makes all kinds of highly opinionated claims, but a few of them are claims of "fact" -- i.e. things that can be proved or disproved.

350driver claims that President Bush is the
*First president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation.

What about
Clinton: Haiti (ordered it, then recalled it)
Reagan: Panama, Grenada
FDR: Germany
Just to name the most obvious examples.

Everybody has their opinions, but 350 & his extreme liberal buddies post outright lies & justify it because of their utter intolorance of the President with whom they disagree. Everything else this guy posts, we all need to consider his willingness to post intentional, wreckless, even blatent falsehoods. Integrity? I see no evidence of it in Mr 350.
 
This just in...

sqwkvfr said:
On 9/10/2001, an overwhelming majority of people would have said the attacks of September 11th weren't plausible.

Leaders of 9/11 Panel Say Attacks Were Probably Preventable

By PHILIP SHENON Published: April 5, 2004


WASHINGTON, April 4 — The leaders of the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks agreed Sunday that evidence gathered by their panel showed the attacks could probably have been prevented.

Their remarks drew sharp disagreement from one of President Bush's closest political advisers, who insisted that the Bush and Clinton administrations had no opportunity to disrupt the Sept. 11 plot. They also offered a preview of the difficult questions likely to confront Condoleezza Rice when she testifies before the panel at a long-awaited public hearing this week.

In a joint television interview, the commission's chairman, Thomas H. Kean, a former Republican governor of New Jersey, and its vice chairman, Lee H. Hamilton, a former Democratic House member from Indiana, indicated that their final report this summer would find that the Sept. 11 attacks were preventable.

They also suggested that Ms. Rice, Mr. Bush's national security adviser, would be questioned aggressively on Thursday about why the administration had not taken more action against Al Qaeda before Sept. 11, and about discrepancies between her public statements and those of Richard A. Clarke, the president's former counterterrorism chief, who has accused the administration of largely ignoring terrorist threats in 2001.

"The whole story might have been different," Mr. Kean said on the NBC News program "Meet the Press," outlining a series of intelligence and law enforcement blunders in the months and years before the attacks.

"There are so many threads and so many things, individual things, that happened," he said. "If we had been able to put those people on the watch list of the airlines, the two who were in the country; again, if we'd stopped some of these people at the borders; if we had acted earlier on Al Qaeda when Al Qaeda was smaller and just getting started."

Mr. Kean also cited the "lack of coordination within the F.B.I." and the bureau's failures to grapple with the implications of the August 2001 arrest of Zacarias Moussaoui, a French citizen who was arrested while in flight school and was later linked to the terrorist cell that carried out the attacks.

Commission officials say current and former officials of the F.B.I., especially the former director Louis J. Freeh, and Attorney General John Ashcroft are expected to be harshly questioned by the 10-member panel at a hearing later this month about the Moussaoui case and other law enforcement failures before Sept. 11.

Mr. Hamilton, a former chairman of the House Intelligence and International Relations committees, said, "There are a lot of ifs; you can string together a whole bunch of ifs, and if things had broken right in all kinds of different ways, as the governor has identified, and frankly if you'd had a little luck, it probably could have been prevented." He said the panel would "make a final judgment on that, I believe, when the commission reports."

Mr. Kean has made similar remarks in the past, but commission officials said it appeared to be the first time Mr. Hamilton, the chief Democrat on the panel, had said publicly that he believed the attacks could have been prevented.

Mr. Kean and other members of the commission also agreed in interviews Sunday that the Bush administration's skepticism about the Clinton administration's national security policies might have led the Bush White House to pay too little attention to the threat of Al Qaeda.

Also appearing on "Meet the Press," Karen P. Hughes, one of Mr. Bush's closest political advisers and an important strategist for his re-election campaign, rejected the suggestion that the attacks could have been prevented.

"I just don't think, based on everything I know, and I was there, that there was anything that anyone in government could have done to have put together the pieces before the horror of that day," Ms. Hughes said. "If we could have in either administration, either in the eight years of the Clinton administration or the seven and a half months of the Bush administration, I'm convinced we would have done so."

Since Mr. Clarke made his charges against the Bush administration in a new book and in highly publicized testimony before the Sept. 11 commission, public opinion polls have suggested that while Mr. Bush's overall approval rating is unchanged, public support for his handling of terrorism has slipped.

The commission has said it intends to make its final report public on July 26, which Congress has set as the commission's deadline, although Mr. Kean and Mr. Hamilton said there could be a struggle with the White House over whether the full document can be declassified. Large portions of the Congressional report on the Sept. 11 attacks remain secret at the insistence of the White House.

Mr. Kean said Andrew H. Card Jr., President Bush's chief of staff, had set up a special declassification team to "look at the report in an expedited manner and try to get it out just as fast as possible — nobody has an interest in this thing coming out in September or October in the middle of the election."

Despite allegations from Congressional Republican leaders that Mr. Clarke is not telling the truth, he received new support for his account on Sunday from a prominent Senate Republican, Richard G. Lugar of Indiana, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

On the ABC News program "This Week," Mr. Lugar said he did not recall any contradictions between Mr. Clarke's testimony to the Sept. 11 commission and information he had previously provided to the joint Congressional investigation of the attacks. Asked if he would join his Republican colleagues in attacking Mr. Clarke's credibility, Senator Lugar replied, "I wouldn't go there."

The commission, known formally as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, is expected to send staff members to the White House on Monday to begin reviewing thousands of classified Clinton-administration foreign policy documents that the White House acknowledged last week it had not turned over.

Responding to criticism from former Clinton aides, the White House explained that it had withheld the files from the commission because they duplicated other material, were not responsive to the commission's requests or contained "highly sensitive" national security information. The White House has agreed to allow the commission's staff to review the documents but has made no promise on giving any of them to the panel.

"We have to ascertain for ourselves that we have had access to what we need," said a commission spokesman, Al Felzenberg.
 
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The voice of reason

Not even I, a rabid anti-Bushist (to coin a phrase), would pin the blame of Sept 11 on him.

Bottom line: If a fanatic is hell-bent on hijacking and crashing an airliner he's gonna do it. No matter who's in office.

Now, if you wanna indict Bush on abuse of office (unconstitutional war, lying to Congress/UN, reckless budget management, etc.) well be my guest.

By the way Snoopy, Bush Sr. invaded Panama, not Reagan.
 
*Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the most smog ridden city in America.


The study which the left STILL hangs onto is only a small part of the truth. Houston was #1 for the most SMOG for 1 year. The very next year that the smog report came out, L.A. was numero uno again. When asked how Houston beat L.A., the study's own people said it was a fluke, a miscalculation. That was big news in Houston.

Back to the dumb-@ss arguement over nothing.
 
WASHINGTON, April 4 — The leaders of the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks agreed Sunday that evidence gathered by their panel showed the attacks could probably have been prevented.

I feel embarassed for anyone who thinks this has any other meaning than left wing posturing.

At face value, it it true. True, that is, if we were to convert out country into a totalitaian state led by islamic extremists. Can you see Katie Couric in a Burka? Naw, she's just too perky.

When you see a pronouncement like this, you haave to ask yourselves: who are the leaders being referenced? What is their agenda? Can their conculsions be backed up using a reasonable person as a reference, or is this a case of fanciful speculation?

I'm surprised anyone would share such a piece as being anything but humor.
 
In short, why would any thinking person consider Clarke's book as anything else, and bother to read it?

Probably because many want to see what he has to offer and what he has seen go terribly wrong, obviously this would not apply to you since you buy into propaganda and you only want to listen to those that agree with your mindset and philosophy.. You continue to spew garbage into this thread and it is quite obvious that you have not even read the book so in reality you let your opinions and emotions continue to be your guiding and only force. I had no doubts in my mind that you would dodge my two previous questions so I will ask one last time...

Take III

1) TB did you or did you not read his book? 2) What did Clarke lie about while under oath that was so different than what was stated in his book?


How many copies have been sold to date? I kind of thought so, apparently just a "few" are interested in what he has to say.

c h e e r s

3 5 0




Updated: 02:24 PM EST
Opinion: Let Us All Now Praise Richard Clarke
Bill Press, Tribune Media Services

(March 25) -- Bring all your kids and pets inside. Close the drapes. Lock the doors. The Bush attack dogs are on the run again.

George Bush turns them loose every time someone dares stand up and tell the truth about the administration. He sicced them on financial adviser Larry Lindsay for telling the true cost of the war in Iraq; on government actuary Richard Foster for telling the true cost of the Medicare bill; and on CIA operative Valerie Plame, when her husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, told the truth about yellowcake from Niger.

Now the Bush attack dogs are out to destroy Bush's own former counterterrorism czar, Richard Clarke, who - in testimony before the 9/11 Commission and in his new book, "Against All Enemies" - dares tell the truth about Bush's failure to take terrorist threats seriously prior to Sept. 11.

In an unprecedented barrage of attacks, Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Press Secretary Scott McClellan - and President Bush himself - have accused Clarke of being a stooge for John Kerry, of delaying publication in order to sell more books and of unfairly singling out George W. Bush for criticism. Don't believe a word of it.

First of all, Clarke teaches a course with Randy Beers, another former member of the Bush administration, who is now an adviser to the Kerry campaign. That's Clarke's sole, so-called "connection" to John Kerry. Clarke himself is a Republican who voted for Bush in 2000, even though he was then working for Clinton. Second, it wasn't Clarke who delayed publication of his book. It was the White House counsel's office - which insisted on vetting every word of Clarke's book, thereby delaying publication for months.

The fact is, Bush's attack dogs can't touch Richard Clarke, because his credentials are impeccable. He spent 30 years in top security positions for four presidents: Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush Jr. He has a reputation as a gruff, no-nonsense straight shooter who became obsessed with the threat of terrorism long before anybody ever heard of Osama bin Laden.

As such - here's something the mainstream media will never tell you - Richard Clarke doesn't just criticize George W. Bush. He's an equal opportunity offender. He slams Ronald Reagan, for not retaliating after the bombing of our barracks in Beirut; Bush Sr., for not retaliating after Pan Am 103; and Bill Clinton, for only bombing the al-Qaida training camps once. He doesn't single out Bush Jr., but he doesn't spare him, either.

In his last year in office, Clarke points out, Clinton had made terrorism his No. 1 priority. He gave the CIA a green light to find and assassinate Osama bin Laden. He ordered National Security Adviser Sandy Berger to hold daily meetings of principals to plot the war on terror. He told the Pentagon to make contingency plans for putting boots on the ground in Afghanistan.

Before leaving the White House, Berger briefed his successor, Condoleezza Rice, on the terrorist threat. Meanwhile, Clarke pushed Rice and President Bush for more aggressive action.

Instead, according to Clarke, the Bush administration did nothing - despite growing signals during the summer of 2001 of an imminent, spectacular terrorist attack against Americans. No meetings. No plan. No action. As Bush himself admitted to Bob Woodward in "Bush at War," "I didn't feel the sense of urgency."

Eight months later, when Bush White House deputies finally did approve and send to the president a plan for confronting terrorism - on Sept. 4, 2001 - it was a joke. Its first step was dispatching an envoy to ask the Taliban to please, pretty please, expel bin Laden from Afghanistan. This from the same gang that now accuses Bill Clinton of too much diplomacy.

It's no surprise the White House is trying to destroy Richard Clarke's credibility. He hits them where it hurts. George Bush is trying to win re-election on one issue only: his leadership in the war on terror. And Clarke blows his cover. Bush didn't act, Clarke demonstrates, until it was too late to save the lives of 3,000 Americans.

The truth is, in the failure to take terrorism more seriously before 9/11, there's enough blame to go around. Blame shared by both President Clinton and President Bush.

There's only one difference. Bill Clinton is not on the ballot in November. George W. Bush is.




The fact is, Bush's attack dogs can't touch Richard Clarke, because his credentials are impeccable. He spent 30 years in top security positions for four presidents: Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton and Bush Jr. He has a reputation as a gruff, no-nonsense straight shooter who became obsessed with the threat of terrorism long before anybody ever heard of Osama bin Laden.

Keep trying to bring the guy down though TB, you may just need to try a tad harder... The truth hurts sometimes...:cool:
 
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No slant here!

"There are so many threads and so many things, individual things, that happened," he said. "If we had been able to put those people on the watch list of the airlines, the two who were in the country; again, if we'd stopped some of these people at the borders; if we had acted earlier on Al Qaeda when Al Qaeda was smaller and just getting started."

I also watched some of these interviews. It seems that the writer of this post is conveniently forgetting many other statements that were said. Such as the above. He was talking about the Clinton Administration not acting soon enough or even at all to Al Qauda in the 90's. He seems to only paint the Bush Administration to be the culprit. Both sides had problems. Both sides handled the data poorly. And both sides would have done something to prevent it if they had specific credible evidence. But I guess that this writer does not want to report both sides of the story. Biased, no way!:eek:
 
The attacks could have been prevented... duh. Of course they could have:

1. Shut down all flying at 0001 on 9/11/01. The attacks COULD NOT have occurred that day.

Of course, absent the pefect crystal ball, nobody had any reason to do this, and the outcry would have been beyond imagination. What else could have been done?

2. Post armed air marshalls on every flight, starting any time on or before 9/11/01. The attackers trained to deal with F/A's and pilots, not armed agents.

Cheaper than option 1, but still expensive. Would have stopped the hijackers. Still would have required a crystal ball for anyone to have recognized that the need was sufficiently urgent to justify the cost.

3. Turn cockpit doors into bank vault doors, with video cameras so the pilots could see out from their seats, and orders not to open them to any hostile party under any circumstances.

Cheaper than option 2, but still expensive. Would have stopped the crashes, if not the hijackers. Would have had to have started long before 9/11/01. Required foresight beyond what anyone had.

4. etcetera etcetera etcetera.

If we'd known what was about to happen, we could have prevented it. Nobody envisioned that it was coming. People knew such things were theoretically possible, right along with hundreds of other terrorist horrors that remain theoretically possible to this day (water supplies, rail attacks, car bombs, Rider-truck bombs, problems in the ports, various bio-terror threats, the list goes on for a long time). But nobody envisioned that this was GOING TO HAPPEN.

If they had, it could have been prevented. More easily so by the administration of which Clarke was a close insider which had 8 years in office to investigate the problem, forulate a response, and implement their plan, than by the administration which found his plan for the Taliban wanting and had finished formulating their own plan (more work than the Clarke under Clinton had accomplished -- done without him) during the 8 months they were in office prior to 9/11.

Eight years vs eight months. Think about it.

"Could have been prevented." If only we'd recognized what was coming. Nobody did. Get over it.
 
Re: Even Powell admits...

Timebuilder said:
When you see a pronouncement like this, you haave to ask yourselves: who are the leaders being referenced? What is their agenda?


The answer to your first question about the committee is in the 3rd paragraph of the article.


In a joint television interview, the commission's chairman, Thomas H. Kean, a former Republican governor of New Jersey, and its vice chairman, Lee H. Hamilton, a former Democratic House member from Indiana, indicated that their final report this summer would find that the Sept. 11 attacks were preventable.

Their agenda:

The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also known as the 9-11 Commission), an independent, bipartisan commission created by congressional legislation and the signature of President George W. Bush in late 2002, is chartered to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks. The Commission is also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks.
 
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Re: The voice of reason

mar said:
Not even I, a rabid anti-Bushist (to coin a phrase), would pin the blame of Sept 11 on him.

Bottom line: If a fanatic is hell-bent on hijacking and crashing an airliner he's gonna do it. No matter who's in office.

FINALLY, THANK YOU!!! It's about time somebody else said this!

I didn't like Clinton, but he wasn't as bad as some say, and he wasn't responsible for acts of terrorism that occured on or shortly after his watch. I have a real problem with people asking, "how could you ALLOW this to happen?"......after the fact.

I can tell you right now.........no commisson, no study, no investigation.......who was responsible for this attack..........the terrorists.
 
Politics: The art of assigning blame

Well, I'm just glad you and I have finally reached some common ground.

Unfortunately no one is interested in discussing an issue without simultaneously assigning blame and protecting their egos.

Even more so in an election year.

And just wait, as November nears it'll get worse.
 
Shedding some light

Here's my take on the Iraq intel situation:

Every so often military pilots are given an intel brief on world threats and other relevant topics. Since 1996, I had been briefed that Iraq had WMD. That came right from the horse's mouth. So if Bush was responsible for "fabricating" the WMD intel, he would have had to been busy doing it up to four years prior to his election to president.

Here, perhaps refresh your memory of how even Clinton asserted that Iraq had WMD back in 1998's Operation Desert Fox with some quotes from a CNN article, easily found by doing a google search on it:

"A second round of explosions were seen and heard over Baghdad at 2:30 a.m. Thursday. The activity occurred shortly after U.S. President Bill Clinton announced he had ordered a "strong, sustained" series of airstrikes on military and security forces in Iraq, designed to degrade Iraq's ability to develop weapons of mass destruction. "

"Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors with nuclear weapons, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said from the Oval Office.

And to jog your memory on Clinton's Iraq policy, here are a few more quotes:

U.S. forces could strike Iraq at any time if Iraqi officials again refuse to cooperate with U.N. weapons inspectors, Defense Secretary William Cohen said Thursday.

Here is a quote from a UN report dated March 1998, stating that their own technical experts concluded that Iraq had the capability to produce VX:

the assessment of the technical evaluation meeting on this matter had been that Iraq had the capability to produce and weaponize large quantities of VX.

Here's a quote from a CNN special report on Iraqi inspections, basically displaying that the common assertion of the day was that Iraq did in fact have WMD and was hiding it:

Saddam Hussein has played a deadly game in Baghdad -- trying to retain and enhance his remaining weapons of mass destruction, while U.N. arms inspectors try to find and destroy them.

In late 1997, Saddam Hussein raised the stakes even further, blocking U.N. investigators who were seemingly within reach of his ultimate secrets.

"They have the ammunition, I imagine, the bombs and maybe some missiles hidden," Ekeus contends. "And there are something like 80 biological facilities ranging from research to storage -- and they are fully equipped. And certainly most important, the expertise that resided in the biological weapons program is intact."

Despite Iraq's promises, U.N. inspectors are doubtful that the apparatus of biological war -- from 14 missing tons of growth media to the secret production facilities to the final delivery systems -- will be willingly disclosed

Here's a general link to these quotes. I won't provide every last link to each story or document, but the whole section within CNN has plenty to take a look at.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/iraq/

NOW, who said that Bush "lied" about WMD and "manufactured" the WMD claim? Who said that previous to Bush, no one really believed that he had WMD?
 
Hueydood

NOW, who said that Bush "lied" about WMD and "manufactured" the WMD claim? Who said that previous to Bush, no one really believed that he had WMD?

The 4-5 liberal participators in this thread who are pissed that their guy is not in the white house. You cant use factual data with them because they will just claim it is all a lie and nothing but spin. Just wait and see what they write next.:eek:
 
Response

The responses are interesting. I posted the same information on the Baseops.net political board, and here's the only post to answer back to my post:

I accept the fact that Bush was merely mistaken, or made his decision based on faulty intelligence, or made his decision on information filtered by those who had a stake in a war.

In either case, we were wrong, and Saddam, being the duly-elected leader of a sovereign nation, should be reinstated as President

Of course, they had to throw in the mandatory mysterious group of people that collude to start wars. And of course, we (meaning Bush) were still wrong regardless of what our intel, the UN and everyone else indicated.

Another curious note, none of the other posts following mine even bothered to address the subject, instead preferring to ignore my post.
 
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Hey 350Driver

Since you obviously have all the answers here, why don't you learn me on this.

What is Kerry going to do about Iraq?

Terrorism was Clinton's #1 priority?????? Are you kidding me?

Where do you people come from?

I love hearing Teddy Kennedy talking about being "deceptive". Hipocracy at it's finest.

"Honestly Officers, I wasn't drinking and I didn't realize I left that girl there to drown. Honest I tell ya"

You are clueless man.
 
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Re: Re: Even Powell admits...

N2264J said:
The answer to your first question about the committee is in the 3rd paragraph of the article.




Their agenda:

The National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also known as the 9-11 Commission), an independent, bipartisan commission created by congressional legislation and the signature of President George W. Bush in late 2002, is chartered to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks. The Commission is also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks.

Okay.

Here is the paragraph I was making reference to:

WASHINGTON, April 4 — The leaders of the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks agreed Sunday that evidence gathered by their panel showed the attacks could probably have been prevented.

The leaders you mentioned may not be the same individuals that are being referenced in this story. The agenda of the "independent, bipartisan" commission is indeed the "official" agenda. I'm addressing the obvious partisan questioning, that isn't questioning at all, but is really a series of little "speeches" that contain unsupported assumptions and inuendo.

I can't wait to hear Condi testify, as she will wipe the floor with Clarke, in the very nicest and most considerate manner possible.

:D

The WMD intel had existed long prior to Bush taking office. We fully exhausted every diplomatic means before resorting to a return to war, a war which ended on the basis of adherance to the agreement set in place at the end of the Gulf War. Once that agreement was violated, no peace agreement was in force. Even after that fact, we waited and waited and waited, allowing time and opportunity for Sadaam to do whatever he wanted to do, whether that was undocumented destruction of WMD's, or even their concealment or export to friendly elements outside of Iraq.

Friendly elements, you wonder? Remember, in the Arab world, it is "My Brother and I against My Cousin; My Cousin and I against the Stranger."

To say that 9-11 could have been prevented is a fanciful notion. Even diverse personalities such as Mar (whom I like a lot) can agree that "preventing" 9-11 would have been almost "impossible."

Why?

For us to be successful in defending against terrorism, we have to be 100% right, and be that 100% of the time.

For the terrorists to be successful, they only have to be "right", ie, effective, once in a great while.

Advantage: terrorists.

Lesson: we need to make terrorism as difficult to carry out as we can. In addition, we need to root it out proactively.
 

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