European Flying???

[propilotdave]

what do we know about flying in europe. I mean living there and the whole nine yards. Certificate transfer, minimums, good websites for finding corporate gigs, etc.. France, Spain and especially Italy.

 

[AA717driver]

Dave--Try pprune.org. Lot's of guys from EU over there. Sounds like you have an uphill battle though. Good luck.TC

 

[BritishGuy]

Ok, coming from a Brit himself, I'd say stay clear. You'll have to do 14 written exams though an accredited school (usually takes 9-12 mths average-even if you're the brightest cookie).

Then each exam cost about £60 ($105) to take....you can ONLY take the exam at a max of 4 times before the take all the other passes exams away from you and you start again. The written exams are literally based on the 737 aircraft systems, and it's almost like doing a bit of the type-rating course. Yes, and all this after ONLY having 40hrs and a PPL. It's a 75% pass mark...... OK, assuming your exams are done, you have to take the JAA flight test (for your CPL) then an IR test, and the way they're doing it is that it ends up costing people about £15000 (around $25000).

It's a big con, and a way for the Europeans to protect their own market. I know people that have done all this, some got on with flying 737NG's with Ryanair (with 250hrs) and others have done their instructors course (about £5,000 - figure about $8,500) and they have about 700hrs and no job in sight. It's a weird market in Europe. From my experience (and I will say I only have about 750hrs - so the experience is limited) but the Europeans are miles ahead when they have their CPL than the Americans (speaking academically), but the Americans will fly circles around the Europeans at 250hrs.....And to me, I think the practical aspect is what counts. So in my opinion I think the Americans have got it just about right.

 

[bocefus]

and if you still are not convinced it's a bad idea--

Don't forget that unless you are a citizen of an EU country, the most you will get an employement contract for is 1 year

 

[7B2]

Ok, coming from a Brit himself, I'd say stay clear. You'll have to do 14 written exams though an accredited school (usually takes 9-12 mths average-even if you're the brightest cookie).

Then each exam cost about £60 ($105) to take....you can ONLY take the exam at a max of 4 times before the take all the other passes exams away from you and you start again. The written exams are literally based on the 737 aircraft systems, and it's almost like doing a bit of the type-rating course. Yes, and all this after ONLY having 40hrs and a PPL. It's a 75% pass mark...... OK, assuming your exams are done, you have to take the JAA flight test (for your CPL) then an IR test, and the way they're doing it is that it ends up costing people about £15000 (around $25000).

It's a big con, and a way for the Europeans to protect their own market. I know people that have done all this, some got on with flying 737NG's with Ryanair (with 250hrs) and others have done their instructors course (about £5,000 - figure about $8,500) and they have about 700hrs and no job in sight. It's a weird market in Europe. From my experience (and I will say I only have about 750hrs - so the experience is limited) but the Europeans are miles ahead when they have their CPL than the Americans (speaking academically), but the Americans will fly circles around the Europeans at 250hrs.....And to me, I think the practical aspect is what counts. So in my opinion I think the Americans have got it just about right.

Here's the abbreviated version:

Pain the a$$

 

[propilotdave]

Thanks for the feedback

thanks for the reply, sounds like quite the deal to get into the UK scene. No gtacias. Paid enough already. Fly well and enjoy, dave

Any idea about getting into the Italian scene???

 

[pilot1704]

well it is not that complicated!

Everyone complains that they can't work in Europe or that it is so difficult.

Well let I tell you. You need working permit if you want to work in USA or you need to be citizen. If you want to work in EU countries you need working permit once again, or be citizen of some of the EU countries. ( there is guite a many of them)

Then if you want to fly in USA you need to have your FAA pilot license and meet qualifications, time, speak, write and understand english....

If you want to work in EU you also need pilot license, most of the cases JAA license. That requires work and dedication to achive, but even in USA you can't get license by applying lottery.

In europe since EU is not one country like USA (NY, NJ, VA, CA, Fl etc..) you might need to know some other language, no you don't have to be perfect but you have to read,write and understand, like in germany example Germany. Kind of fair isnt it.

IF you are american or lets say differently to be politically correct other than EU country citizen and you have ICAO atpl with at least 1500 hours in aircraft what is certified for at least two crew members, you are in good position. You need to pass only two written tests from 14 and flight check.

So lets stop complaining that Europeans don't want you there, it work like in any other country. Meet requirements and cut the mustard. Good luck!

I have FAA, JAA , and Australian licenses, so it can be done. But key is I still desided to work here in Great USA. Go Bush

 

[BritishGuy]

IF you are american or lets say differently to be politically correct other than EU country citizen and you have ICAO atpl with at least 1500 hours in aircraft what is certified for at least two crew members, you are in good position. You need to pass only two written tests from 14 and flight check.

PILOT1704, I don't know where you get your information from - But being British and knowing the JAA system, I can confirm what you've said is totally incorrect in terms of havnig 1500 hours of multi crew time and you only have to sit 2 of the 14 exams. ONLY IF! I suggest you read the LASORS, the CAA publication on how to convert a foreign licence. Yes, if you have 3000 Command time in aircraft with AUW of 30,000kg+ then yes, then and only then will you have to sit 2 exams. And lets face it, 3000 hours command time in an 30,000kg AUW aircraft isn't something everyone has....Or maybe I should speak fo myself and let everyone else make their own judgement.

 

[pilot1704]

jar-fcl PArt 1 ICAO annex 1

But how would you know since your total time is not even 1500 hours according your profile!

Check also JAR -FCL 1.015

change 1 01.06.00 and change 2 01.08.02

And if you have difficulties to understand pM me I am very happy to help you!

 

[BritishGuy]

What does my total time have to do with the knowledge of JAR?

 

[BritishGuy]

Straight from LASORS (the CAA handbook):

ATPL(A) holders who have a minimum of 1500 hours flying experience as PIC or Co-pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes (or single-pilot aeroplanes operated by 2-pilots according to operational requirements) and hold a valid multi-pilot type rating for the aeroplane to be used for the ATPL(A) skill test and have at least 500 hours experience as pilot on that type, will be exempted from the requirements to complete an approved TRTO course or undergo approved training prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations and the skill test. Pilots with less than 500 hours experience as pilot on the type to be used for the ATPL(A) skill test will be exempted from the requirements to undergo approved training prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations but will still be required to complete an approved type rating course. However, the course may be reduced to take account of previous experience on the same type upon recommendation by the TRTO to PLD.

Hence, this exempts you from the approved course of training but not from the examinations.

To be exempt the examinations, you need in excess of 3,000 hours flying experience as pilot of public transport aircraft over 30,000kgs MTWA on scheduled international or similar routes, including a minimum of 1,500 hours as Pilot-in-Command (Captain). In this case, you will get a JAA ATPL(A) but it'll restricted to UK registered aeroplanes and you'll still need to pass all the exams to get that restriction removed.

Looks like the 750 odd hours does make a big difference to the knowledge I hold. I see the correlation.

 

[pilot1704]

well long story short!

I did it and had FAA ATPL with plenty of time with required multi-crew aiplane!

Maybe you in england have different rules since you are not fully in EU anyway

 

[7B2]

I'm with Britishguy..

 

[BritishGuy]

Maybe you in england have different rules since you are not fully in EU anyway

I'm still trying to make sense of this quote.

I'd love to know how many hours and what kinda time you had when you converted, not to say you're wrong, but I don't seem think I'm going to get though all 14 exams right now so if I have an idea of what kinda time you presented to the CAA then I'd know the kinda time I'm looking at before they entertain me.

 

[pilot1704]

Like it says in FCL , that every case is different!

I had 4300 total time, 2500 hours turbojet time , 4000 PIC time

Turbojet weight varied anywhere between 15500LBS - 98000LBS

I really dont know how things are in ENgland but in got mine done.

I hope you will get your also, but if you live and work in USA and you have decent job I would build some time and maybe in next 5 years get over there. Just my toughts.

And what comes to post before!

Since England is not fully member of European Union, you know all that Euro money etc.. Maybe that has something to do , what do I know.

But good luck for you too. This will be my last post on this issue, I am in South America next two weeks so good luck .

 

[BritishGuy]

People sometimes make this common mistake that England (or United Kingdom) is not an EU member. Thats totally incorrect. The UK has Full EU membership. In regards to the Euro, just because the Euro isn't used in the UK doesn't in anyway indicate that the UK is not an EU member, we just don't have the Single Eurpean Currency in use here. That doesn't have anything to do with EU membership.

There is one new interesting thread that I did read on here to the effect of:

There are rumours floating around that there are new regulations coming in to play for converting a FAA commercial or ATP to JAA that are more relaxed than the current requirements.

Apparently an agreement has been made that is with the European commision as we speak that they are trying to get to the European Parliament before the end of the summer?

This is music to my ears if true, and hopefully a good thing to fellow aviators out there wanting (or needing a JAA) ticket without jumping though the hoops.

South America sounds nice! Have a good one!

 

[pilot1704]

YEs I heard about that too!

I heard about that also, they have been planning it long time!

Lets hope it comes through!

So britguy you instructor in USA now!

 

[BritishGuy]

I hate to bring this thread up again, but looks like theres some good news about FAA to JAA conversions. Here's the link:

http://www.ifrance.fr/bbchat/images/CONVERSION.pdf

Basically, now it looks like you need 1500hrs of time in a 'multi pilot' aircraft and hey presto, one exam later you can have your JAA licence! Not bad huh? Looks like the Europeans have finally sorted their act out.

 

[CatYaaak]

I hate to bring this thread up again, but looks like theres some good news about FAA to JAA conversions. Here's the link:

http://www.ifrance.fr/bbchat/images/CONVERSION.pdf

Basically, now it looks like you need 1500hrs of time in a 'multi pilot' aircraft and hey presto, one exam later you can have your JAA licence! Not bad huh? Looks like the Europeans have finally sorted their act out.

It's about time. Historically, the Brit and Euro attitude regarding aviation has been one that regards aviation and driving airplanes as rocket surgery.... a mixed-bag that regards being a pilot is an "elite" profession reserved for their "best and brightest", protectionist barriers, economies/tax structures that squelch every sector of aviation except state-run airlines and their academies, and every flight as an Apollo moon shot. Nice to see they're waking up....there's probably more corporate aircraft based in the US NE corridor alone than all the European countries combined. This goes for flight schools, clubs, small airlines..you name it. Speaks for itself. Also, the wages are doodly-squat. The grass is NOT greener on the other side of the Atlantic fence.

The Brits...gotta love em...well they just LOVE official-sounding, yet non-essential radio chatter! You can't intercept an approach in radar contact over England without being advised to "advise when established on the approach" (why?...don't ask me..adds to the congested frequencies. I guess their radars don't actually show...you know... blips) or being told "you have 20 miles to run until such-and-such fix" (um....ok!..now just what am I supposed to do with this information, Nigel?). Ah, but the best is when the pilots check onto freq with that phony-baloney accent...you know the one......."Ahem....____ Control, it's THUH SpeedBuhrd 123 Flight Level 400....". I swear, every BA pilot must carry a dictation machine to practice that straight-out-of-Hollywood-central-casting radio voice while alone in their hotel rooms at night, instead on their laptops looking at porn sites like normal pilots. And btw, what's with that "THUH" sh1t ????

Then there's the French! You may have THOUGHT English was the official aviation language.....HA! Just wait until you're surrounded by Air France flights in French airspace...you'll have NO mental picture of what's going on unless you speak French (Gee, they just cleared me in bad English to "line-up-and-wait" on the runway during low vis...but do I have any idea whether they just cleared that other guy they were just talking French to, to land...on me?....He11 no but oh well.. C'est La Vie!!!). And you haven't lived until you've gone through a SAFA inspection on the ramp compliments of their surly authorities.....I'm convinced they're secretly looking for stowaway snails to pocket while you're looking the other way, busy rummaging through dusty supplemental sections of avionics tech logs to prove you actually had the approved equipment to navigate where you just navigated to.

Oh, and they..Brits, Euros..the lot of 'em.... all refer to upgrading as "getting one's Command". "Command".....visions of striding up to and standing...feet firm, legs apart, proud eyes cast to the horizon, Napolean Hat plumage fluttering in the breeze.. on the wooden deck of a 120-gun Man-O-War. Ah yes...the HMS Airbus!

Fly in Europe enough and you will quickly begin to miss the competence and versatility of the controllers in our system (yes, I said that!), and their humor. O'hare-style, ego-crushing sardonic wit doesn't exist over there, and the airway (not airport)-slot system that just keeps almost everybody from going anywhere on the ground (to airports big and small) guarantees that they'll never need NY (and ATL, DFW, LAX, etc) Tracon-types who could, if they had to, squeeze all of Heathrow's traffic into the airspace occupied by Prince Charles' ears.

 

[Computer Geek]

I had to respond...just to say I laughed my as off.....
and I thought I was the only one who thought this way!

Cheers big ears
CG