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EU Open Skies just approved thru CANADA, ALPA losses again!

luckytohaveajob

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ALPA had no influence in the process.

EU/US Open Skies not needed now.

March 2008, OPEN SKIES BETWEEN CANADA, MEXICO, and America was approved. Now all an EU carrier has to do is stop in Canada or Mexico.

Good thing SWA just signed up WestJet and Volaris.


ALPA Supports New Canada/EU Air Services Agreement
Pilots Adamantly Oppose Any Change to Foreign Control Rules
December 10, 2008

Capt. Nick DiCintio, vice-president of ALPA’s Canada Board, and other ALPA representatives were on hand yesterday at the invitation of Canadian Transport Minister John Baird when he announced a new air services agreement between Canada and the European Union. ALPA had advanced its pilots’ perspectives as an industry observer during the Canada/EU negotiations.

“The new services agreement, which is consistent with the existing Blue Sky policy, offers substantial benefits to Canada and the European Union and enhances travel options for both passengers and businesses,” said DiCintio following the news conference. “While they will only go into effect if the Canadian Parliament changes the law, ALPA does remain concerned about certain aspects of the agreement that involve EU ownership and control of Canadian airlines.”

DiCintio pointed out that commercial air transport has long been recognized as a critical component of Canada’s economic and security infrastructure. Canada, like most countries, has laws that preserve and foster its own domestic air transportation systems, driven by the desire to maintain air service that is independent and free from foreign influence.

“ALPA remains adamantly opposed to any change in Canadian law that would allow an EU airline to carry domestic traffic between points in Canada or allow EU companies or airlines to fully control Canadian airlines,” continued DiCintio. “While we have no reason to believe that any changes to existing Canadian law will be made, ALPA would vigorously fight any effort to allow cabotage or foreign control of Canadian airlines.”

ALPA will continue to closely monitor the process and will remain ready to advance the interests of its pilots as the agreement goes forward.
 
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Full of LUV

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What?????

ALPA had no influence in the process.

EU/US Open Skies not needed now.

March 2008, OPEN SKIES BETWEEN CANADA, MEXICO, and America was approved. Now all an EU carrier has to do is stop in Canada or Mexico.

Good thing SWA just signed up WestJet and Volaris.


ALPA Supports New Canada/EU Air Services Agreement
Pilots Adamantly Oppose Any Change to Foreign Control Rules
December 10, 2008

Capt. Nick DiCintio, vice-president of ALPA’s Canada Board, and other ALPA representatives were on hand yesterday at the invitation of Canadian Transport Minister John Baird when he announced a new air services agreement between Canada and the European Union. ALPA had advanced its pilots’ perspectives as an industry observer during the Canada/EU negotiations.

“The new services agreement, which is consistent with the existing Blue Sky policy, offers substantial benefits to Canada and the European Union and enhances travel options for both passengers and businesses,” said DiCintio following the news conference. “While they will only go into effect if the Canadian Parliament changes the law, ALPA does remain concerned about certain aspects of the agreement that involve EU ownership and control of Canadian airlines.”

DiCintio pointed out that commercial air transport has long been recognized as a critical component of Canada’s economic and security infrastructure. Canada, like most countries, has laws that preserve and foster its own domestic air transportation systems, driven by the desire to maintain air service that is independent and free from foreign influence.

“ALPA remains adamantly opposed to any change in Canadian law that would allow an EU airline to carry domestic traffic between points in Canada or allow EU companies or airlines to fully control Canadian airlines,” continued DiCintio. “While we have no reason to believe that any changes to existing Canadian law will be made, ALPA would vigorously fight any effort to allow cabotage or foreign control of Canadian airlines.”

ALPA will continue to closely monitor the process and will remain ready to advance the interests of its pilots as the agreement goes forward.

Open skies already approved for the US, you are a day late and a dollar short. What is NOT approved are intra US flights on a foreign carrier, that could be the end of our Domestic system jobs. Right now, any airline can fly between the EU and US direct as long as they can do it safely and have landing and T/O spots at the airports they intend to serve.
I doubt even Canada will give away their domestic air carrier service, otherwise SWA would just move in and fly toronto - Montreal etc and would seriously impair westjet and aircanada from making any money.
LUV
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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EU reaches agreement on air services with Canada, Israel and Armenia
The EU has reached reciprocal agreements with Canada, Israel and Armenia on air services.
In its statement the EU described the agreement with Canada as “far reaching” and said that “it is groundbreaking in the aviation world as the agreement includes all possible aspects of aviation, including investment”.
The agreement with Israel does not replace the agreements already made with “27 EU member states but brings these in line with European law”, said the EU statement.
The Armenian agreement was concluded after three years of negotiations and will permit any European airline to have “non-discriminatory access to the air transport market between the EU and Armenia”.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Canada, EU liberalize rules on foreign ownership, direct flights
Even as U.S. and EU negotiators continue to negotiate the next stage in their "open skies" agreements, the EU and Canada announced Tuesday that an aviation agreement had been reached that would raise caps on foreign ownership and allow direct flights to and from any of the 27 EU nations. "I just think this is a great win for Canada -- more competition, more choice, more options," said Canadian Transport Minister John Baird. Though Canadian carriers generally applauded the liberalized rules, there were some concerns over plans to allow cabotage under later phases of the agreement. "In a cabotage scenario, you're likely to see the richer routes in Canada creamed off, and there's not going to be much service to smaller communities," said the interim president of the Air Transport Association of Canada
 

Full of LUV

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Oh no, not Armenia.....

Though Canadian carriers generally applauded the liberalized rules, there were some concerns over plans to allow cabotage under later phases of the agreement. "In a cabotage scenario, you're likely to see the richer routes in Canada creamed off, and there's not going to be much service to smaller communities," said the interim president of the Air Transport Association of Canada

Cabotage will be the death of the domestic system in any country as cheaper labor would quickly have an advantage over the home airline. Imagine an "Air India" in 10 years, once their training pipelines have pumped out thousands of pilots waiting for the chance to fly the intra canada flights for $100 a day.

Armenia fell to open skies? Oh no!
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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Full of LUV,

Your SWAPA Prez, Kuwitsky, recently addressed the US/EU forum on Dec 3 in Wash DC, on the subject of deregulation.

Sooner or later SWA will have to get into the int'l market. I am thinking LUV B787s in FRA in less than 10 years.....

The LUV niche won't last forever....

What's the plan....?
 

Full of LUV

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I don't know.....

Full of LUV,

Your SWAPA Prez, Kuwitsky, recently addressed the US/EU forum on Dec 3 in Wash DC, on the subject of deregulation.

Sooner or later SWA will have to get into the int'l market. I am thinking LUV B787s in FRA in less than 10 years.....

The LUV niche won't last forever....

What's the plan....?

Rez,
I agree with you and not with the original poster, at least ALPA is involved and trying to put pennies on the tracks of the oncoming freight train of cabotage. Once you have cabotage and foreign ownership allowed, it will be Katy bar the door!

SWA has been successful by being conservative at every step. It may one day be their biggest fault is that SWA becomes too big and conservative and the enviornment changes faster then the business model. All companies that continue to use what worked last decade, eventually fade away to obscurity.

Unfortunately for ALPA, it has spent the last two decades so squarely alienating the junior pilots with the age 65 debacle, scope allowances, b scale, etc that a lot of pilots in their 30's and 40's don't trust anything that they say or do.
I know you will say it's the individual MEC's that vote for this stuff, but somehow the union has to become tougher nationally and say, if your contract doesn't match X for this plane, then you are not ALLOWED into the union. Then say, ALPA jumpseats are for ALPA pilots and take a stand. Only then will pilots stand up for being part of their union.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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No I agree with you on the ALPA flaws.... but as the int'l issues become cumbersome and ubiquitous, we are going to have to work together....

So if we are to become one and that one is the big one, ALPA, then ALPA better clean up its act and become an attractive organization....


Now c'mon, LUV B787 in FRA is thought provoking... you guys are nuts over there! Crazy Nuts!
 

LearLove

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Unfortunately for ALPA, it has spent the last two decades so squarely alienating the junior pilots with the age 65 debacle, scope allowances, b scale, etc that a lot of pilots in their 30's and 40's don't trust anything that they say or do.

spot on, at 34 years old I'm squarely in this group.
 

JoeMerchant

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But Rez....Canada is a left wing, labor friendly, country...how did this happen?
 

jumppilot

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Unfortunately for ALPA, it has spent the last two decades so squarely alienating the junior pilots with the age 65 debacle, scope allowances, b scale, etc that a lot of pilots in their 30's and 40's don't trust anything that they say or do.


So very true.

ALPA sent out a mag a year ago telling us to tell the airways pilots (before their de-cert) how awesome ALPA was and they had an article highlighting their points.

All the points mentioned cockpit safety, working with the FAA for duty times, political clout...yet nowhere did I see anything...

..THAT DIRECTLY IMPACTED MY QUALITY OF LIFE!

You can talk about GPWS all you want, but those are mandated by the government. Our paychecks are not.

I've seen people talk about protecting A-Funds, helping with retirement, blastmails that talk about funding schedules. At no time have I seen anyone talk about crappy first year pay, "yeah we voted for it, but you know what? We are not going to stand for it."

ALPA has failed me and I'll gladly be managements pawn against older people and vote accordingly.

PS: I had no idea how screwed up our trade was until I talked to a union plumber. "I can quit from this job and at my next I'll still make 13th year pay. I mean, I am a plumber and I should be paid as such."
 
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JoeMerchant

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PS: I had no idea how screwed up our trade was until I talked to a union plumber. "I can quit from this job and at my next I'll still make 13th year pay. I mean, I am a plumber and I should be paid as such."

Rez? PNC_128? Calling all ALPA cheerleaders....
 

Full of LUV

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Didn't really mean for an ALPA bashing post....

Rez? PNC_128? Calling all ALPA cheerleaders....

Who is ALPA or any of the pilot unions, except ourselves? Rez and the others understand that the union is interested in what those who fund, organize and volunteer for the union are interested in. To that point it is no wonder that the airline unions, all of them, step on their young in a vain attempt to preserve an unsustainable ideal for the senior pilots.

ALPA is the main Professional Pilot Union and should work to advance the future of the industry and the profession. If I were ALPA president, I would set a floor for each type of aircraft that a pilot with a certain amount of experience can make, whatever that number is. Then make ALPA membership valuable, not just the aeromedical and safety stuff, because all pilots benefit now, but include jumpseats as well. ALPA jumpseats carry professional pilots to professional jobs. Obviously you would work with the current major unions to effect a transition. But imagine the power ALPA would really have over the industry if say MESA couldn't pay pilots in Hawaii $24 an hour by counting on others to transport cheap labor for free back and forth from the mainland.
Only when ALPA sets the standards and enforces them, will companies see the value in working with ALPA rather than always using pilot contracts against each other.
Now I know historians will say that leapfrogging eachothers contract has been a barginning tactic during the good time from way back when, but that just seems to get companies so far out of whack that they ultimately can't compete and fall on their swords.
A baseline for each aircraft indexed for inflation would go a long ways towards putting some security back into the profession.
Also, last idea, if any ALPA carrier were to need to furlough, and an ALPA carrier were hiring, they would hire from the furlough list first before taking on new bodies into the union. So once you were in the union, you had first dibs on new union jobs.
I know some will say the nonunion carriers would just undercut ALPA, but good luck staffing an airline that all have to live local, without the free commute, many a companies would be in worse shape.
Thoughts......
 

luckytohaveajob

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Rez,
I agree with you and not with the original poster, at least ALPA is involved and trying to put pennies on the tracks of the oncoming freight train of cabotage.....


Unfortunately for ALPA, it has spent the last two decades so squarely alienating the junior pilots with the age 65 debacle, scope allowances, b scale, etc that a lot of pilots in their 30's and 40's don't trust anything that they say or do.
I know you will say it's the individual MEC's that vote for this stuff, but somehow the union has to become tougher nationally and say, if your contract doesn't match X for this plane, then you are not ALLOWED into the union. Then say, ALPA jumpseats are for ALPA pilots and take a stand. Only then will pilots stand up for being part of their union.

We do agree, but with a huge difference. I don't think ALPA has any intention in stopping cabatog or putting pennies on the track to stop the damage as you say. SWA's domestic only operations will be severely damaged.

ALPA will sell out the junior pilots again as ALPA has every time to make some small gain for those nearing retirement at the expense of the entire industry concerning cabatoge.

ALPA has thrown the junior pilots under the bus so many times in the last 15 years, I have lost count. ALPA will never do anything for the whole. ALPA calls it politics. I call it betrayal.
 
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Rez O. Lewshun

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We do agree, but with a huge difference. I don't think ALPA has any intention in stopping cabatog or putting pennies on the track to stop the damage as you say. SWA's domestic only operations will be severely damaged.

How does ALPA stop cabotage when the political machine, general public, special interests and corporations want it?

Putting the burden and responsibility on ALPA's shoulders is like expecting David without a slingshot to defeat Goliath....

ALPA will sell out the junior pilots again as ALPA has every time to make some small gain for those nearing retirement at the expense of the entire industry concerning cabatoge.

Maybe... if the junior pilots sit around and do nothing.... currently this is an invalid web address

www.juniorpilotsforchange.com


ALPA has thrown the junior pilots under the bus so many times in the last 15 years, I have lost count. ALPA will never do anything for the whole. ALPA calls it politics. I call it betrayal.

Agreed. Now what are the junior pilots going to do about it? Be sheep like they've been for 15 years?

Recall in ALPA's day First Officers only had 1/2 a vote.

If you want change for you, then you need to change.

During the last 15 years have the senior guys done much for the junior guys? Then why do you expect them to change? Is it fair to expect you to change?
 
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