ESTABLISHED on a DME ARC ?

[TonyC]

"Maintain Five thousand until established, you're cleared the ______ approach."

Established on a localizer... I got it

Established on a VOR course... I got it

Established on an NDB course... I got that, too

But what if the segment of the published approach in question is defined by a DME ARC?

What constitutes "Established on a DME ARC"?

I've got loads of info from TERPS regarding obstacle clearance, criteria for building the approach, etc., and I've got plenty of OPINIONS about what constitutes "established." Does anyone have a documentable "correct" answer, i.e., one with a reference?

Your help is appreciated

 

[Andy Neill]

The Instrument Flying Handbook, AC61-27C, Revised 1980, Chapter 8, pp 142-145 describes the procedure to intercept and fly a DME Arc but is silent as to what constitues "established" on a DME Arc.

The PTS says that a DME Arc must be flown within 1 nm of the target value.

In the absence of more definitive guidance, I would say that I am established on a DME arc when I begin my intercept turn onto the arc such that I would roll out on the specified value AND I am within 1 nm of the specified value (whichever comes later). I guess that constitues another opinion. Sorry I could not find anything more definitive.

 

[midlifeflyer]

"Maintain Five thousand until established, you're cleared the ______ approach."

Established on a localizer... I got it

Established on a VOR course... I got it

Established on an NDB course... I got that, too

But what if the segment of the published approach in question is defined by a DME ARC?

What does it mean in those other cases? (the ones you "got"?)

 

[The FNG]

"Established" on anything means you've had your needle, CDI, OBS, CDB, or whatever CENTERED at some point, then remain within the lateral or vertical boundaries. If you were to intercept and fly an ILS 1/2 dot above/below the GS the whole way down you were never established. If you were to fly the entire DME arc offset 1 mile you would have never been established. Same thing with a PT inbound, you don't let down just because you're within the lateral boundaries. You let down once your needles are centered then remain within the lateral boundaries.

 

[Singlecoil]

"Established" on anything means you've had your needle, CDI, OBS, CDB, or whatever CENTERED at some point, then remain within the lateral or vertical boundaries. If you were to intercept and fly an ILS 1/2 dot above/below the GS the whole way down you were never established. If you were to fly the entire DME arc offset 1 mile you would have never been established. Same thing with a PT inbound, you don't let down just because you're within the lateral boundaries. You let down once your needles are centered then remain within the lateral boundaries.

Something tells me you get into this discussion often with the people you fly with. Course alive on a procedure turn on a VOR or ILS/LOC means you can let down. For NDB's it is within 10 degrees of the final approach course.
There are times you might want to fly an ILS a dot high the whole way down, like when you are following a heavy. That is perfectly legit.
Established means you are within the lateral boundaries, centered or not.

 

[cvsfly]

Also on a DME Arc established as part of the approach means according to the approach plate. If you are intercepting a published arc before the depicted radial that identifies the IAF for the arc that published altitude does not apply. Maintain last assigned until you reach that IAF point, then let down to the published altitude. Your MVA may not even be any different at the time in some areas, but check it.

 

[The FNG]

[Something tells me you get into this discussion often with the people you fly with. ]

Something tells me you don't bother landing on the centerline.

[Course alive on a procedure turn on a VOR or ILS/LOC means you can let down.]

Course alive! You gotta be kidding me. You can have course alive well before a LOC 1or LOC 2 message or removal of a LOC flag, and you're going to let down? Tell me where and when you fly so I can keep my family off the flight.

[For NDB's it is within 10 degrees of the final approach course.]

As sketchy as an NDB is and you're comfortable being 10 degrees off. Funny, I've never seen an NDB final approach course published with a "+ or - 10 degree" allowance.

[There are times you might want to fly an ILS a dot high the whole way down, like when you are following a heavy. That is perfectly legit.]

No S**T Sherlock. But usually this is done by maintaining an altitude and flying through the GS, then flying down slightly above in VS mode. Get it, by flying through it you were once centered and thus "established". This is also "technique" not dogma.

[Established means you are within the lateral boundaries, centered or not.]

Lateral boundaries? You just used an example with vertical boundaries. Which one is it?

The P/C Glossary defines established as: To be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.

It says ON a route. Not BESIDE a route. Routes are not published with a + or - anything. There's one number, period. Are there buffers built in? Of course. But they're for INSTRUMENT ERROR. Not for intentional use, or rather misuse.

Combine + or - 10 degrees plus instrument error and I think I've answered that nagging question you have during post flight of where the tree branches in the gear came from. You can thank me later for clearing that up.

 

[DitchDriver]

I take it this assumes receiving radar vectors. As far as I remember, you can get vectors for any of the listed, but never for a DME arc. See AIM 5-4-3 (b) "... are vectored to the final approach course". The only way to get on an arc is by passing over an intersection, typically IAF on the arc. For that case, see other replies.

There are no DME arc final segments, only initial/intermediate segments are constructed with those.

I can not remember ever being vectored for anything but final course and then told I'm clear for approach. That "maintain (alt) til established, clear for approach" applies only to an intercept on the intermediate segment, if it coincides with final course.

Vectors for anything else, prior to final course will state what vectors are for in the clearance (for traffic, to a fix, etc.) and then it will be "resume normal/own nav".

"Maintain Five thousand until established, you're cleared the ______ approach."

But what if the segment of the published approach in question is defined by a DME ARC?

 

[Deftone45075]

The previous post was the same as what i was thinking. Furthermore, when you are cleared for an approach and told to remain at a specified altitude until "established", this means "final approach coarse" not DME arc. And since a DME arc is NOT part of the Final approach course, you will not be using the fact that you are on the arc to descend.

As Ditchdriver said, if you are recieving vectors, it is to the final approach course, thus bypassing the DME arc all together.

 

[Ty Webb]

Course alive! You gotta be kidding me. You can have course alive well before a LOC 1or LOC 2 message or removal of a LOC flag, and you're going to let down? Tell me where and when you fly so I can keep my family off the flight.[/i]


Sorry, Chief, but he's right . . . . and you're wrong.

"Established" means that you have reliable course indication, within the tolerances of the instrument. There is no "magic" upon "centering" the needle. Either you have a live needle on a functioning instrument tuned to an identified frequency, or you don't- the term "centered" just doesn't come into it, at all.

Even in the B717, one of the most technologically advanced, (full autoland) aircraft out there right now, we get a "LOC Capture" indication long before it ever centers, sometimes before needle movement is even apparent . . . . .

Dogmatic weenies like you loves to focus on the minutaie until they run into the ground, . . . but that is a topic for another string. . . . so you just have yourself a nice one, y'hear?

 

[Singlecoil]

Thanks Tyweb

Thanks for putting the flames out, I was seriously on fire there for a moment. I wasn't sure where to start on a reply to that one...trees in my landing gear? Please. I think he threw in a no $hit sherlock, even.
We definitely all know what FNG stands for...

 

[The FNG]

["Established" means that you have reliable course indication, within the tolerances of the instrument.]

Ever heard of side lobes? Course alive is hardly a reliable course indication, hence the delay before LOC. Besides, what's your reference? If you have one I'll stand corrected.

Just thinking out loud here, but does established on a heading then mean a few degrees either side? Altitude mean a few hundred feet plus or minus?

[BTW- Even in the B717, one of the most technologically advanced, (full autoland) aircraft out there right now, we get a "LOC Capture" indication long before it ever centers, sometimes before I would call it "captured" myself]

There's a difference between localizer alive and LOC capture tough guy. Besides, you're confusing automation with procedure. When climbing to capture 10k does automation (non-auto-throttle) accelerate above 250 a few hundred feet below? Yes it does. And is it acceptable? Yes it is. Why? Because it's been certified that way and the POI blessed it. During level acceleration on a V1 profile does the aircraft descend a few hundred feet? Yes. Do the FARs allow a descent? No. You guessed it hero, automation. Same with approach mode. You can't capture GS until after you have LOC. Is the needle centered. No it isn't. But that's automation not procedure.

[Of course, a gigantic weenie like you would just focus on the minutaie until he ran into the ground, because he didn;t understand the term "relevance"]

Speaking of running into the ground, I guess you consider minutia silly things like o2 canisters too.

 

[Ty Webb]

There's a difference between localizer alive and LOC capture tough guy. Besides, you're confusing automation with procedure.

This is so nonsensical, there is nothing here to discuss.

When climbing to capture 10k does automation (non-auto-throttle) accelerate above 250 a few hundred feet below?

I don;t know. I don;t know what you are flying. It doesn;t in mine. Relevant? No.

You During level acceleration on a V1 profile does the aircraft descend a few hundred feet? Yes.

A "V1 profile"? Are you refering to V3/Final segment acceleration phase? No airplane descends at that time, not a Part 25 Transport Category aircraft. What the hell are you talking about?


Do the FARs allow a descent? No. You guessed it hero, automation.

Don't know what piece of junk you're flying, but mine doesn't descend during V3 acceleration, if that is what you're talking about. Of course, I usually hand-fly this portion of my checkrides, but when I have demo'd the procedure coupled, mine does just fine. Anyway, again, it's not relevant.

Same with approach mode. You can't capture GS until after you have LOC. Is the needle centered. No it isn't. But that's automation not procedure.

more tripe. Has no relevance. Do you actually have anything worthwhile to say? Still reading .. . . . . hmmnnn.

Speaking of running into the ground, I guess you consider minutia silly things like o2 canisters too.

I don't know of any professional pilot who would actually write something like this. I guess you were still in diapers when this happened (7 years ago) but I'll bring you up to date . . . . those cannisters were marked as "empty" by a company who was trying to save a few bucks. They shipped them aboard, in closed containers, and the captain's paperwork indicated they were empty, and therefore approved for shipment . . . they caught fire in flight, killed everyone, and now an @sshole like you, who obvioulsy isn;t fit to lick the shoes of that crew, uses this in a post about when to descend from a DME Arc?

Why don't you taka a few minutes here and tell me and the rest of your peers what YOU do differently that would have prevented this accident? Please- do tell us how you personally open every box that makes it's way into your cargo compartment, and how you are a superior aviator?

Because we are all waiting.

Obviously, you have no place in professional aviation, or you need to sit it out on the sidelines until you have developed some maturity.

 

[The FNG]

Lighten up Francis. That's what's so entertaining about this site, people like you who are so predictable and thin-skinned.

I won't debate the details of our last exchanges. I'd be getting into too much minutia. But trust me, my statements are statements of fact and I believe you are incorrect on several points.

Let's bottom line it then. It's all about safety. You got young kids on here looking for mentorship and people like you advocating the margins of safety. Why argue about flying needles centered? Flying the centerline? Flying a degree? Flying a knot? Can any of this be done absolutely perfectly? Not by me and I bet not by you either. But the difference is at least I try. That to me is professionalism.

With regard to the original subject, if it's an 11 DME arc, then fly 11 DME. If instrument error has you actually flying 11.5 then at least you've done your best. But if you believe flying an 11 DME arc at 12 or 13 or 14 DME is all the same then add to that instrument error and you see what I'm getting at.

I thought about the crash reference before I wrote it but I wanted to emphasise a point. Someone at somepoint minimized the importance of the task at hand. Either a supervisor training a box stuffer, or the box stuffer himself or maybe the manager who wrote the training syllabus. Whatever, someone at somepoint had the responsibility to adhere to the standard and they didn't.

How about AA in Cali. Just a couple wrong key pushes... Someone thought those details were minutia too. Do you consider limitations minutia? Why not just say green good, red bad, yellow not so good.

Or Air Midwest. Elevator trim rigged at the margin combined with CG load at the margin... If someone adhered to the standard and not the + or - allowance the tragic chain could have been broken.

Know the standard. That's my point.

I believe established means "stable or fixed ON the course". If it's 11 DME the that means 11 DME. If the final approach course says 180 degrees then its 180 degrees. If the airway radial says R-240 then ...

Anyway, do what you want. My work here is done and I'm bored. Time to get my Jerry Springer and WWF Smackdown fix...tough guy.

Had to throw that in! Relax, relax, take a deep breath...

 

[Ty Webb]

Lighten up Francis. That's what's so entertaining about this site, people like you who are so predictable and thin-skinned.[/i]


Anyone who would invoke a dead crew with such a complete and utter lack of respect and who thinks that it is "entertaining" to do so is not someone I will be wasting any time with.

 

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by FlyChicaga
[I'm curious, how do most FMS handle arcs? Can they even do so?

Yup. The Honeywell FMS in the B717 and MD11 can do 'em, and, if memory serves me correctly, the GNS-XLS will do them too.

 

[AWACoff]

I've got to agree with everybody else, FNG. I am almost certain you are in error in regards to "established". I dig through my AIM today and pull out the proper reference. Just to reiterate my thought, you are considered established upon the course "coming alive" which means you may descend. You might want to stay away from both airlines I've flown at as everybody I've ever flown with has flown that way. In fact, stay away from United, American, Delta, Comair, Air Wisconsin, ASA, Great Lakes, and others I can't think of right now. I've been in the cockpits for all those airlines while jumpseating and have seen crews fly the same way. If you flew the way you profess to, you wouldn't initiate a turn to intercept a course until you were on "centerline". You would fly through the course every time and I know for a fact the AIM reccomends differently.

 

[The FNG]

Whatever guys, especially Ty. I bet you're a real A-hole to fly with, panties in a wad the whole time. The FAs probably nickname you Richard Head. And don't put words in my mouth. I've lost many friends in the military and unfortunately continue to do so.

Yeah, Cali was simplified, but if you want I'll email you the transcript for your records.

This could go on and on. When flying from one airway to another, true you lead the turn to fly centerline to centerline but which one are you established on? Both courses are alive. So in between are you on both or none or what. To me when I'm centered on one I'm established on that then when I'm centered on the other I'm established on that. In between I'm established on neither. I even have a word for that in between part, TRANSITIONING! Same with ALT to GS, vectors to NAV (DME arc for example). It's one or the other or transitioning in between. Established: "...stable or fixed on...", seems pretty clear.

We're getting into semantics... Just fly safely.

With regard to loading an arc simply select the transition. Also, DME arc waypoints are coded based on their position i.e., D123L means DME waypoint off the 123 radial at (count the letters) 12 DME. (Ty took off his shoes for that)

 

[Ty Webb]

There's a new Idiot in the Village

You're either very immature, very inexperienced, or both. I have been posting to this board for over five years, and have learned a long time ago not to waste time with obnoxious, boorish a-holes like yourself who haven't even figured out yet how little they truly do know- both about life, and about our profession.

Congratulations- you are my first "Banned Poster". You can have the last word. I'm going to the beach.

 

[AWACoff]

FNG, I was unable to come up with any supporting data for my position as it does not exist in the AIM. The definition of "Established" in the P/C glossary is ambiguous at best. I believe you are 100% correct when you say we are arguing semantics. You potato, I say potato. I don't think we can prove who is "right".