"Err... Roger that Memphis Center... Sorry 'bout that."

[ThomasR]

No excuse for Rude

People working with the public can maintain a professional profile for about seven to eight hours without a break. With a break somewhere after the sixth hour a trained personaility can maintain composure up to ten hours. But rarely more than ten and mostly less.

What I am saying is that people have to work at being professional with the public; and that work wares on ones resistance to stress. After reaching the limit all it takes is something to happen out of the expected and the frustration is impossible to restain. It comes out in body language and voice tone first and progresses to hostility.

Controlers who become rude over the radio are either over worked, under supervised or both. I don't know if there are any academic studies on this issue, but I have conducted undocumented studies on many people working in the public eye and the stats all confirm the range of tolerance. The stats are the same for any profession across the full range of age and training.

Hopitals use to run pilots over the limit with the reasoning that they are at rest between flights. As long as you are on duty you are subject to public stress and performance declines at a specific limit. Fortunately most hospitals have adjusted their EMS requirements for duty time.

 

[CameronW]

Thomas- very interesting post. If they're understaffed I can see how that might lead to longer and/or more frequent shifts and higher levels of stress. We're all human and we all have our limits.

de727ups- I'll start talking to other pilots on base about using the "victor" radio if they have one when getting the hand off to ZME. I don't know if it'll help, but it may be worth a shot.

MarineGrunt- it may hurt, but am I wrong?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Can you guys imagine what it would be like out there if we talked to the controllers the way they talked to us? I flew a flight a while back with a captain who shat all over some controllers who were just doing their job, but he didn't like what he was hearing. It was an interesting turn of the tables, but embarassing for me. The controllers seemed somewhat entertained by the guy as it was quite a slow night, actually. There's no reason for anyone getting $hitty on the radios. Everyone's out there trying their best...

 

[CameronW]

There's no reason for anyone getting $hitty on the radios. Everyone's out there trying their best...

My thoughts exactly- although I do recognize that frustration gets the best of all of us sometimes.

 

[RJPilott]

Cameron, dont sweat it. You're going to have that type of controller no matter where you go for as long as there is ATC and pilots. There are also some pilots out there with the same attitude when a controller messes up so it works both ways (can anyone guess who might be that type of pilot?). When it happens, just chalk it up and move on. You'll be out of his airspace soon enough and speaking with a different controller. I learned to fly in the NY Metro area and then later professionally. Many times i have gone into NY TRACON airspace and boned up a clearance or radio call. Sometimes i have gotten yelled at, sometimes i didnt. I let it roll off each time and laughed at the fact the controller has his panties in such a bind. Later, when i was flying professionally, i was based at LGA. Many boned up radio calls were made by everyone, controllers and pilots alike. Yeah some got reamed, and some got laughed at, its all part of the business of flying planes. People are gonna get stessed and there is nothing we can do about it except laugh and move on while wishing the other a good day. Perhaps this is why you hear most pilots with a cheerful response when getting a sarcastic tone from the controller. It happens.

 

[RightPedal]

CameronW

Sir, you are a real gentleman and I like the way you handle yourself.

Thank you.

 

[s0ldier93]

Cameron, I had a NATCA official at Oshkosh (when I asked a similar question) tell me to request the operator's initials and approach/center phone # over the freq then call on the ground and talk to the supervisor on duty to see what both sides can do better. His exact words to me - "We screw up just as much as pilots, and if we can learn from each other's mistakes, it makes everything safer. We are here to help." And remember, there's usually at least one @sshole in each major ATC facility, just ask the people here about the lady at LGA...

I don't currently have a great deal of experiance with controllers rude or otherwise. I am curious about this suggestion though. Is there I rule that says a controller is required to provide this information? I can see why he or she would take whatever availible excuse there is not to.

 

[satpak77]

well try this one...

sometime in 1992 or 1993, it was 10 PM or so, and I was flying a PA-31-350 with auto freight in the back into DFW (need to go to "west cargo".....ahh the memories) and I heard an AA heavy ask ATC "why did you put company MD-80 in front of us" and then the Mad Dog crew came on and said "who do yuo think you are, we are ahead of you, blah blah" then the heavy crew responded and finally ATC jumped in and said everybody chill the f**k out (not exact word, but clearly conveyed that)

I was wondering "jesus chr1st, welcome to commerical flying"

oh well

later

CROSS HULLEN AT 1-1 THOUSAND, ELEVEN THOUSAND....DFW area ATC circa 1993 comms

 

[CameronW]

LOL Hard to get less professional than arguing with another aircraft over center frequency. Definitely a situation where center would be more than justified in yelling at a pilot or two.

RightPedal- thank you for the kind words.

 

[TonyC]

Cameron,


You asked excellent questions, and have done an admirable job of keeping a professional rapport amongst less-than-professional responders.

I think it's good to observe that not all radio communications are conducted on VHF frequencies - - apparently many pilots are unaware of this phenomenon, even when they experience the "flip side" of the conversation, i.e., controller is talking to someone on UHF and VHF simultaneously, and the airplane on UHF is unheard by the majority of airplanes that hear the controller on VHF. If everyone was aware of this, perhaps there would be less confusion and "stepping" on radio calls.

I think it was fair of you to reserve your judgment until you had a chance to hear the other side (the VHF side) of the sector to observe that it apparently wasn't just B-52's that were receiving the rough handling by the particular controller. It sounds like everyone's getting the same unprofessional treatment, and you only THOUGHT it was you when you were isolated on UHF. Now you know it concerns everyone, so you ask the question in public.

It sounds to me like conduct that no center controller would be proud of. Even when a pilot makes a mistake, a controller has a reponsibility to remain professional. If he can't hack it, he needs to seek a new career path.


You have numbers of supervisors? Call 'em. Express your concerns in general terms, and ask for advice on how to handle them. Invite the guy to KBAD to address a squadron meeting, or to tour the simulator, or to take an orientation ride. Take him out to Ralph & Kacoo's for a little local cuisine. (I forget, is that how you spell that guy's name? ) Once you establish a rapport of mutual respect and support, handling little attitude problems should be a piece of cake. The supervisor will have a greater desire to fix the problem than even YOU have, because the unprofessional controller reflects poorly on HIM.

Given the demeanor you've displayed on this thread, I think that approach should work for you like a charm.

 

[apdsm]

Looks like somebody on here has military "issues"!

 

[minitour]

I don't know if it helps but...I was having some radio problems the other night and as I was coming in, appologised to Tower just in case I caused a P.I.T.A. and all he said was "It Happens"

I guess that sums it up...people have bad days, both pilots and controlers...maybe the guy is goin through a divorce or his dog died or something we don't know...could be understaffed...I'd say don't let it bother ya and if he's REALLY getting on ya and rippin ya a new one just pause a few seconds...key the mike...give him a "roger" REAL quick...should shut him up...but it lets him know you're listening...

I dunno...as Eyeore would say..."Hope It Helped, but Probably Not"

-mini

 

[dasmith]

We're on the verge of a crisis in our ATC system. The FAA has limited hiring in the last few years which means fewer folks in the pipeline. Meanwhile there's a pile of folks retiring in the next 5 years without the replacements in the system. There's not a lot of trained people out there sitting and waiting for ATC jobs like us pilots. That's gonna hurt us regardless of the privatization issues lurking around the corner.

So, they're all over worked, stressed out. All this when FAA makes organization re-engineering a daily effort.

ds

 

[de727ups]

"no reason for anyone getting $hitty on the radios."

"There's no reason for anyone getting $hitty on the radios."

Amen to that. I've been pretty embarrassed about the way my co-crewmembers have worked the radio a few times. Pilots who yell at ATC when they are just doing their job are jerks.

You should hear the what controllers say about pilots off the freq....used to crack me up. I few well placed "A$$hole" comments as soon as ATC unkeys the mike.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

CameronW,

Sir, I agree with RP, you are indeed a real gentleman !

Regards,
FD

 

[Vector4fun]

Cameron,

Sorry for being late responding. I'd like to make some comments.



I'm a Terminal controller, not a Center type. I should also add I never regularly work Buffs, but used to, years ago occasionally, when they'd have an exercise in/around my airspace. And third, I just spent 5 hours flying the length of Memphis Center's airspace from TYS to the DFW area in a Cessna.


First, I'd always prefer you be on VHF rather than UHF. I know it's a lot of chatter you may not want to listen to, but it's VERY frustrating to have two or more pilots blocking each other on freq all the time. That goes for the guys who transmit .3 seconds after flipping the switch to a new freq as well. I often listen for 15-20 seconds before transmitting when I'm flying.

Second, and I don't want you to take any of this personal in any way, but 20 years ago, *MY* experience only, Buff drivers could be some of the biggest jerks in the sky at times. (from our perspective). They didn't seem to understand that just because the Air Force planned a peacetime exercise that was to put their B-52 on a runway for departure at *exactly* 11:52Z, followed by climbout over X fix at *exactly* 12:07Z, followed by etc. etc.; that it didn't necessarily follow that civilian ATC was going to shut down all other traffic to enable them to complete said exercise *exactly* on their secret schedule. I say "secret" because they **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure never shared it with us until they called to complain about missing it. In other words, communication and coordination regarding mission objectives and priorities was not only lacking, it was often non-existant.

I won't mention what I said on the air a couple times about the technicians fiddling with jamming gear on the ramp........

Let me hasten to add that I can't recall a "jerk" Buff driver over the last 10 years, but there's still the occasional problem with coordination and communication, and it's as likely on our end as yours. Just don't assume the controller really knows what you're trying to accomplish.


Third, I listened to several MEM Center guys working the trainers around Columbus, (I stopped for gas at UOX), and I could tell they were a bit frazzled by all the requests from the AF trainers, but they never sounded "rude" to me, just a little harried. It's hard to communicate complex request clearly at times, just as it's hard to communicate a complex clearance so an AF student understands. Also, I work with a couple guys who just find it impossible to put a "smile" in their voice on frequency. It's just their manner, and they sound like they're grumpy all the time. They don't intend to, it's just their way when speaking in "ATC". I even sound cross at times when the frequency it getting out of hand. It's the fastest, easiest way to get everyone's attention. Would rather not, but there it is just the same. I also could tell they were a bit peeved about being shut down for a time to ATL, because they were slowing and holding some Airliners.

By all means, call the Center and talk to a Supe if you're treated badly. Some of the biggest "pissin" contests I ever heard on freq were just a complete mis-understanding about what each was trying to say while complying with the reccommended phraseology in the AIM. No joke.


Perhaps it's just a case of some older guys who still have a "hard-on" for some of your predecessors over in Shreveport? I dunno. We also have a few who have reached the stage they need to retire and do something else. They just can't seem to "pull the trigger". I wonder sometimes, how close I am to that point........

 

[ArcticFlier]

Rodzilla

I'm lucky I worked at LAX approach control for a year, so I've seen ATC stuff from both sides.

Hey de727ups,

Did you know a guy at the LAX facility named Rod? I think he's in ORD now. He was a 'pleasure' to work with.

AF

 

[Sam Fisher]

Cameron,

As others have said, you clearly show professional demeanor. I'd enjoy sharing the cockpit with you. With that said, if you don't want to transmit on victor, why not transmit on victor but listen on uniform? This way, you can cut down on the "blocked" responses but at the same time, utilize your reasoning for talking on uniform. Just a thought.

Sam

 

[Ravengirl]

Meanwhile there's a pile of folks retiring in the next 5 years without the replacements in the system. There's not a lot of trained people out there sitting and waiting for ATC jobs like us pilots.

Actually...there are some of us (around 375 currently on the CTI list, plus military veterans, etc.) waiting to be hired by the FAA...it's just that the FAA isn't doing anything in the way of getting us into the system. It's frustrating


Stephanie

 

[ArcticFlier]

I know what you're saying Ravengirl. I've got two friends that work ATC in the SAN area. (One at SAN one at CRQ). Both are trying to get to LAX TRACON. They're on the list.............no money to get them there.


AF