Engine Programs

[moonlight]

We just acquired a new King Air 350, and the owners have asked me to look into the different engine programs that are available. I've got info on ESP (P&WC's program), and I've got info on JSSI's program coming. Any thoughts or experiences with either of these programs? Maybe I'm missing something, but if we budget an hourly amount and deposit these funds in anticipation of future maintenance, it seems like we are accomplishing the same thing in the long term. Pro's and con's, opinions welcome.

 

[h25b]

I'm missing something, but if we budget an hourly amount and deposit these funds in anticipation of future maintenance, it seems like we are accomplishing the same thing in the long term. Pro's and con's, opinions welcome.

I'd say this would be a very dangerous route to go. It didn't work out too well for the social security trust fund either. (just kidding) Go with one of the programs. If ESP is anywhere as good as Honeywell MSP Gold go with it.

In addition, going with some sort "self managed" plan won't yield any resale benefit and will be a huge downside when it comes to trade in.

For example, on a TFE731 with 1000 hrs. you would have to pay $340,000 to buy back in to the program for 2 engines plus the applicable transfer fee. And I don't care who your boss is and even if you did really put that money aside, you're going to get some long stares when the bill comes in for an engine that goes to core unexpectantly...

I worked for a very large company that did what you're suggesting. We had 3 (yes, 3) 731's that went to core with back seal issues inside of 2 months to the tune of around $250,000 each. The boss had some explaining to do and we ended up going back on to MSP anyway.

GO WITH ONE OF THE PLANS !!! I wasn't willing to bet my job on whether or not I could outperform the MSP program and I don't think you should either.

 

[H.Agenda]

Is it really a new airplane? under warranty? If so I would wait till the warranty expires, or close to it, (so they overlap) then go with the hourly maintinence program.

Why pay extra for something thats covered for free.

 

[moonlight]

Yes, the plane is brand new. However, as I am quickly discovering w/ a little research, there are a LOT of things that aren't covered by the warranty. Warranty covers manufacturing defects, that's about it. Also, the two programs I've researched so far offer discounted hourly rates while the warranty is in effect.

 

[H.Agenda]

Yes, the plane is brand new. However, as I am quickly discovering w/ a little research, there are a LOT of things that aren't covered by the warranty. Warranty covers manufacturing defects, that's about it. Also, the two programs I've researched so far offer discounted hourly rates while the warranty is in effect.

check your PM's.

 

[h25b]

Is it really a new airplane? under warranty? If so I would wait till the warranty expires, or close to it, (so they overlap) then go with the hourly maintinence program.

Why pay extra for something thats covered for free.

Typically a new aircraft will come with about 3 different coverages. There is the airframe manufacturers warranty which covers any part actually produced by the aircraft company. On our Lear for example it covers any Learjet manufactured part, which really doesn't cover much because this items don't ever just break. The next coverage is typically an avionics warranty which in our case was a 5 yrs. Bendix King/Honeywell. And then we had a vendor warranty that covers vendor produced items...

But none of these will cover powerplant. Our aircraft has been on MSP Gold since new.

 

[Headwind]

If you buy a used aircraft that is on MSP there is no decision to make - you stay with the program.If buying a new aircraft then you must make the decision. It's like insurance and the people who run the program make a profit. Questions:1. Can your company take the big hit for major scheduled maintenance like OH, hots, etc? (sometimes they run three times more than expected)2. Can they afford a 200K to 400K hit for unscheduled maintenance?3. If you have engine failure on a trip can they afford the down time for you to rent an engine, have it shipped, pay someone to remove and install? With MSP gold it's paid and it's done in 24 hours. (took me 11 days & several thousand dollars with no program)4. At resale time do you want to add or subtract dollars for engine hours? Aircraft on a 100% engine program are worth more.If you can answer yes to all above then you could,with luck, be dollars ahead to avoid the engine program and pay as needed. I feel more secure with MSP knowing that even if we spend more over the life of the aircraft we had no surprises along the way.HEADWIND

 

[Capt1124]

I went through a hot section with JSSI and was not impressed. MSP Gold covers removal and replacement, but most shops I got bids from offer to do that for free. It does cover the rental engine though, and if they guarantee one will be available, that would be a plus. (Do they? Anybody?)

If I was buying an airplane I would want 100% coverage on the engines, the costs are huge and unpredictable.

 

[h25b]

I went through a hot section with JSSI and was not impressed. MSP Gold covers removal and replacement, but most shops I got bids from offer to do that for free. It does cover the rental engine though, and if they guarantee one will be available, that would be a plus. (Do they? Anybody?)

If I was buying an airplane I would want 100% coverage on the engines, the costs are huge and unpredictable.

MSP Gold covers R&R... As for rental engines, I don't think they guarantee availability but GOLD puts you at the top of the list. I haven't seen anyone not be able to get an engine that was on MSP Gold.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Print out what Headwind wrote. He knows what he is talking about. I will add that if you are AOG and something like a FCU goes Tango Uniform, it is also included and on Gold, they'll send someone down in the middle of the night to fix and/or replace it. If you take a bird, MSP will cover it but the warraanty will not. If you take the gamble, you can "buy into" the program when the warranty expires. I would only suggest that if you do not fly much as there is a minimum # of hours you must fly, otherwise, MSP is going to charge you for them anyways. So if you don't want MSP but are going to get it so the aircraft will be covered when the warranty expires, ask if there is a fee that would exceed the MSG required minimum when you "buy in". Honestly, if I were in your shoes, I would figure out exactly what you want and talk Headwind into getting on the phone with you and discus your options. Since you are getting into turbine aircraft, you might as well start learning all about spending $ and astronomical rates, so if you want good information that you can trust, get headwind on the phone and cut him a check.

If you buy a used aircraft that is on MSP there is no decision to make - you stay with the program.If buying a new aircraft then you must make the decision. It's like insurance and the people who run the program make a profit. Questions:1. Can your company take the big hit for major scheduled maintenance like OH, hots, etc? (sometimes they run three times more than expected)2. Can they afford a 200K to 400K hit for unscheduled maintenance?3. If you have engine failure on a trip can they afford the down time for you to rent an engine, have it shipped, pay someone to remove and install? With MSP gold it's paid and it's done in 24 hours. (took me 11 days & several thousand dollars with no program)4. At resale time do you want to add or subtract dollars for engine hours? Aircraft on a 100% engine program are worth more.If you can answer yes to all above then you could,with luck, be dollars ahead to avoid the engine program and pay as needed. I feel more secure with MSP knowing that even if we spend more over the life of the aircraft we had no surprises along the way.HEADWIND