Engine Failure On Takeoff - 2 Cfi's At The Controls

[PHX767]

I have a couple hundred hours of dual given in the Seminole, so I thought I would chime in to this thoughtful discussion.

Re: The new MEI's comment that his examiner said he always accelerates to blue line before gear retraction - I ask, what is blue line? Best engine out climb speed, right? How does this relate to Vmc and control of the airplane? Please be aware that Vmc is an everchanging speed dependent on a lot of factors, the gear being one of them. Why not attain Vmc, be able to fly if you lose one, then retract the gear and pitch for at least Vyse + 5-10.

Here's a question to muck up the works - Will the prop feather if the engine stops? Are there anti feather pins on this plane? How about other light twins you are flying?

I was well versed in all the factors that affect Vmc when I was an MEI. When I trained pilots in a larger turboprop, I met Vmc a few times every night, especially when light, on a single engine miss, and then the student called for Gear up. I could tell by how far they had the yoke cranked over to keep the wings level how close we were to the edge.

 

[FlyBieWire]

This is very interesting.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I have a couple hundred hours of dual given in the Seminole, so I thought I would chime in to this thoughtful discussion.

Why not attain Vmc, be able to fly if you lose one, then retract the gear and pitch for at least Vyse + 5-10.

The proper procedure for takeoff in a multiengine airplane is to always rotate past Vmc at Vr and pitch for Vy, retracting the landing gear very shortly after takeoff unless the takeoff runway is longer than 5000 feet in length. If an engine is lost pitch forward to hold airspeed and do not accelerate to Vyse if below by no more than 10k (unless control is a problem). Vxse is also a proper airspeed speed for initial engine out climb airspeed after takeoff.

If airspeed is no more than 10k below Vyse, single engine rate-of-climb will still be almost as good and may even be better than at Vyse if the airplane is lightly loaded. Accelerating to the marked blue line will most likely result in altitude loss and possibly a flight directly into eternity.

 

[Holding Short]

Pitch for level flight and then do the procedure. Eyes outside not focused on A/S indicator. Level flight will be close enough on speed, above VMC.

My $ 0.02 P.S. Works on Microsofts 2004 F/S every time.

 

[Holding Short]

I don't have my multi engine rating yet, but I did stay at the Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[Holding Short]

Hello... Hello... testing 1..2...3.
Is this thing(mic) on?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Pitch for level flight and then do the procedure. Eyes outside not focused on A/S indicator. Level flight will be close enough on speed, above VMC.

Your comment is insightful and correct. Keep staying at the Holiday Inn Express!

 

[acaTerry]

Why not attain Vmc, be able to fly if you lose one, then retract the gear and pitch for at least Vyse + 5-10.

Wow, I hope I misread what you mean here...

Do you mean maintain Vmc? No way you'll catch me doing that. Losing an engine at Vmc in a Seminole would require a very, very aggressive pitch down if encountered during the takeoff phase. Certain death if you are down low.

I am of the school of thought to accelerate through Vmc and get to Blue line rapidly. Clean up once you have met that point where you are safer to continue the climb or start that inevitable descent on one engine (buy yourself more time).

That decision, of course, has been the debate of this whole thread.

 

[brokeflyer]

what they did wrong was get into that airplane in the first place.....but they made up for that mistake by doing the right thing and landing.......

 

[acaTerry]

Most dangerous thing I ever did...got in a Cherokee with 3 other CFIs.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

what they did wrong was get into that airplane in the first place.....but they made up for that mistake by doing the right thing and landing.......

I'm not quite clear on the meaning of this post. Are you referring the accident that is the initial subject of this thread? Meaning that their only option was to crash the airplane and that that was the correct choice?

 

[IHateDaley]

I see that this discussion evolved into an article in the June edition of the Flight Training magazine (or is it the other way around?), written by UF himself.

 

[barracuda]

I've done something very similar during my MEI training. It's a great thing to have experienced and I'm glad I was shown it. In a duchess or seminone continuing the takeoff will seldom produce satisfactory results as has been stated over and over. The trick (procedure) is to not pull the power back when it happens in order to land especially on a long runway. The airplane isn't going anywhere fast anyway. The first thing as always is to maintain control of the aircraft and then secondly to slowly retard throttle to come down and land it.

The specific airport also matters. Are you in kansas where if you can maintain altitude or maybe even climb slowly you can bring it around (admittedly dangerous) or do you have a 300 foot hill at the end?

I am by no means to qualify this question other than being a pilot but hopefully its close to right.
:beer:

 

[papanovember]

Here's a question to muck up the works - Will the prop feather if the engine stops? Are there anti feather pins on this plane? How about other light twins you are flying?

NO. That always confused me when doing my multi training. My MEI and all the examiners I had for each stage check would ask about the fixed and variable forces acting on the prop. Then they would ask what will happen if the engine fails. They wanted to hear that it would feather but it didn't. I believe the POH (don't have it here) said the feathering pins engage below 950 RPM. But for the prop to feather you need a loss of oil pressure. As we all know when the engine fails the prop just windmills depending on speed you could have no reduction in engine RPM. My instuctor demonstrated this once in the Seminole by failing an engine while in a decent and having me try and decide which engine was failed by looking at the instruments and I couldn't tell. The only difference was the failed engine had about an inch more of MAP and the temps were a little cooler. A failed engine that is windmilling will still have oil pressure which in turn will keep the prop in a low pitch position. The only case of engine failure that will cause the prop to feather automatically is a rapid decrease in oil pressure.

 

[brokeflyer]

seminole is not a part 23 airplane.....don't matter if you lose one at 50ft with a feathered prop....it may climb.....or it may not.

good luck