Engine Failure in Flight

[midlifeflyer]

With regard to Midlife's question, higher-drag airplanes tend to have a lower nose attitude for best glide speed...holding a Stearman in a level flight attitude with the engine out will seriously degrade its already rock-like gliding qualities

Thanks David. Guess I haven't flown high-enough drag airplanes to see it yet.

 

[Prof. ATP]

I've never thought about the pitch attitude during an engine failure.

For most GA airplanes, the pitch attitude for best glide is very close to nose-on-the-horizon. Best glide is about 6 degrees angle of attack, and the glide angle is about 6 degrees...

I was taught (and teach) glide-grass-gas.

 

[185'er]

Go for best glide speed while doing the checklist. When you get the speed, trim the airplane to help you maintain it. Best glide speed is very important and may make the difference between an on-airport or off-airport landing. Don't forget to practice this occasionally.

 

[avbug]

I dont think its likely that your engine would go from perfect health to totally dead instantly from carb ice anyhow.

Really? I guess you've had enough carb ice related failures to know.

I've had it stone cold and dead fairly quickly in ice and ended up landing in that condition because it couldn't be restarted. Perhaps a few more tries and I'll find out you're really right.

Thanks. Guess you've been flying long enough that it's so automatic that you don't need to think about it for yourself and aren't worried about how to teach it to others.

No, it's done intuitively, and the student should understand it intuitively. The first few hours in the pattern with a primary student, I use the same airspeed for takeoff, approach, and landing. The student only memorizes or knows one airspeed, one feeling, one way to fly, intially. The student understands that speed, knows the power settings, the feel power on and power off, the trim settings, by feel, without thinking. I can cover up the instruments and have the student set the speed and uncover them to show the student he or she can achieve it. Each time.

After that, the student will always think something is wrong if the engine is working properly, because I'll never let him go long without an engine failure.

As far as the attitude, I think it's a wrong way to look at it. I don't care about the attitude; that could vary with loading, weight, whatever...but what's on the dial, and what's in the hand and in the ear, I do care about. If the airplane feels like it's at best glide and I can confirm it by checking, fine.

Best glide is only important if you need to glide. Most of the time you're looking at a landing site beneath you, if it's a complete power failure. In that case, minimum sink is much more important.

How many people teach minimum sink?

 

[MauleSkinner]

How many people teach minimum sink?

Well, speaking as a glider instructor...

I noticed the other day that the Aviat Husky lists a minimum sink speed in the AFM...first I've seen it in a power plane...kind of refreshing!

Fly safe!

David

 

[Lead Sled]

Well, speaking as a glider instructor...

I noticed the other day that the Aviat Husky lists a minimum sink speed in the AFM...first I've seen it in a power plane...kind of refreshing!

Speaking as another glider instructor...

I'm currently flying an Astra and they even give you the best L/D speed - it's not listed as such, but that's what it is none the less. We could always introduce the concept of "Speed to Fly".

If I were king of the world, I would require a certain amount of training in gliders, aerobatics, and tailwheels for EVERY fixed-wing pilot. There'd be a whole lot less crash'n going on. But hey that's just me and I'm not the king of the world.

'Sled

 

[dmrogers]

...I have always been taught to immeadiately pitch for Best Glide when the engine fails, and then start looking for a place to land and turning. After you have that under control, you start running your restart checklist, and then your shutdown checklist.

Now I am at a school where they want you to immeadiately run your checklist, and then if it wont restart pitch for best glide, and look for a place to land and turn.

How were you guys taught? How would you do it in an emergency as PIC?

A wiser man than myself once said:

Aviate, navigate, investigate, communicate.

My aerobatics instructor gave me the “evacuate” option as well.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'm currently flying an Astra and they even give you the best L/D speed - it's not listed as such, but that's what it is none the less. We could always introduce the concept of "Speed to Fly". 'Sled

You'd not only have to adjust your McCready ring for anticipated climb rate, but also keep track of massive changes in TAS over the 40,000-ft altitude range for best penetration speed in that Astra

Fly safe!

David

 

[Cutlass1287]

Really? I guess you've had enough carb ice related failures to know.

Actually I have had one, and the engine did in fact die as soon as I pulled the power, and I had to make a power off 180 (this happened abeam the numbers). I guess this kind of condradicts my earlier speculation.

 

[avbug]

In that particular case, you created the engine failure by closing the throttle. Had you opened the throttle again and resupplied the engine with fuel and air, you may have experienced a restart. By applying carburetor heat with full power for ten or fifteen seconds prior to power reduction, you would have avoided the situation).

The most conducive condition to the formation of ice is when the airflow is highest and the temp drop the greatest; high power settings (for venturi icing). Icing with the throttle completely closed occurs adjacent and just downstream of the throttle plate as the gap between the plate and wall is blocked, and the idle jet is occluded.

Generally speaking, idle descents in a piston airplane are bad form.

 

[eljefe]

You guys may appreciate the procedure an instructor I knew years ago used to teach for dealing with an engine failure in a single engine airplane at night:

Upon engine failure at night:

1) Set up for best rate of glide speed.

2) Head for an area that looks suitable for landing.

3) Check carb heat, fuel selector, ignition, etc.

4) When you get down close to the ground, turn on your landing light. If you don't like what you see...turn it back off!

:beer:

 

[Cutlass1287]

In that particular case, you created the engine failure by closing the throttle. Had you opened the throttle again and resupplied the engine with fuel and air, you may have experienced a restart. By applying carburetor heat with full power for ten or fifteen seconds prior to power reduction, you would have avoided the situation).

The most conducive condition to the formation of ice is when the airflow is highest and the temp drop the greatest; high power settings (for venturi icing). Icing with the throttle completely closed occurs adjacent and just downstream of the throttle plate as the gap between the plate and wall is blocked, and the idle jet is occluded.

Generally speaking, idle descents in a piston airplane are bad form.

Well, it happened abeam the numbers in a 152, and when I reduced the power to 1700 rpm (not idle) it started to cough, so I flew a tight pattern at idle power and landed, and then burned off the ice on the ground. I didn't see any point in trying to fix it in the air, as I had the runway made.

 

[BLing]

...I have always been taught to immeadiately pitch for Best Glide when the engine fails, and then start looking for a place to land and turning. After you have that under control, you start running your restart checklist, and then your shutdown checklist.

Now I am at a school where they want you to immeadiately run your checklist, and then if it wont restart pitch for best glide, and look for a place to land and turn.

How were you guys taught? How would you do it in an emergency as PIC?

Your school is retarded!

 

[Lead Sled]

How would you handle this scenario?

Here's the scenario: You're in cruise at 7,500'; you've been running "a little too long" on the left tank; you notice a fluctuation in fuel pressure and the engine surges and quits.

Really guys, how would you handle this scenario?

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

You guys may appreciate the procedure an instructor I knew years ago used to teach for dealing with an engine failure in a single engine airplane at night:

Upon engine failure at night:

1) Set up for best rate of glide speed.

2) Head for an area that looks suitable for landing.

3) Check carb heat, fuel selector, ignition, etc.

4) When you get down close to the ground, turn on your landing light. If you don't like what you see...turn it back off!

Your instructor left out the the most important step...

5) Bend over, put your head between your knees and kiss your sweet fanny goodbye.

'Sled

 

[acaTerry]

I have had 5 failures and a fire. My best advice to solve this question...don't wait until the failure to start looking for a place to land.

 

[USMCmech]

Here's the scenario: You're in cruise at 7,500'; you've been running "a little too long" on the left tank; you notice a fluctuation in fuel pressure and the engine surges and quits.

Really guys, how would you handle this scenario?

Switch to the right tank,

Yawn,

Watch the engine resume making power (per the certification requirements this must occur in less than 20 seconds),

Return to my crossword puzzle

 

[VNugget]

In that particular case, you created the engine failure by closing the throttle. Had you opened the throttle again and resupplied the engine with fuel and air, you may have experienced a restart.

In this situation, wouldn't it be wiser to just land? Let's just say the failure wasn't due to carb ice, but rather due to an unknown mechanical reason. Seems foolish to try to get a restart, and, upon getting a restart, fly out of glide range of the runway only to risk another failure, as opposed to landing on the runway that he already had made.

(Avbug? You've flown enough different aircraft; certainly far more than me. With my limited experience, I have never come across a single that didn't approximate best glide by simply putting it into a cruise level pitch attitude. Have you?)

Attitude doesn't necessarily correspond to speed or glide ratio, in call cases. It's true that if you start out at a cruise condition and cut the power, you can hold that attitude and the plane may slow down and settle into a good glide speed; but even in the same plane, if you start off way slow, you can put it in a cruise attitude and it can be sinking like a manhole cover. I wouldn't depend on just one sense to judge the situation, but look at the totality of the picture. If the plane's in level attitude, but I can't hear the wind and the stick's way back in my lap and soft as a sponge, something's wrong here.

 

[avbug]

In this situation, wouldn't it be wiser to just land? Let's just say the failure wasn't due to carb ice, but rather due to an unknown mechanical reason. Seems foolish to try to get a restart, and, upon getting a restart, fly out of glide range of the runway only to risk another failure, as opposed to landing on the runway that he already had made.

I said nothing of the sort. However, there's no need to land if you have carburetor ice and solve your icing problem, is there? If we executed a forced landing every time we experienced a bit of carburetor ice, the land would be littered with airplanes.

If you have a partially occluded carburetor or induction, and experience an engine failure by closing the throttle...opening it and finding that it still runs isn't a bad thing, and it's far better if one does intend to land to have the power and the option available.

What could possibly be the downside?

Well, it happened abeam the numbers in a 152, and when I reduced the power to 1700 rpm (not idle) it started to cough, so I flew a tight pattern at idle power and landed, and then burned off the ice on the ground. I didn't see any point in trying to fix it in the air, as I had the runway made.

Sounds reasonable to me.