endurance of a Global 6000?

[G4dude]

Isn't that what EJM is for? Won't they be managing a few G650s to cater to those diehard Gucci Jet lovers who refuse the Global?

Probably. I am a little worried you are right.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Probably. I am a little worried you are right.

Why worry, G4? I'm pretty sure you're free to apply for a job with EJM. Maybe it would be a good thing to get your foot in the door now for when they add a G650 to the fleet.

 

[imacdog]

EJM is nonunion too, G4 is always welcome to spread the Gulfstream love over there.

 

[johnsonrod]

From Netjets G450/550 to........

Slightly off topic. Probably a political Netjets "hot potato" but a few basic questions that still have not been answered for me. Please prepare your flak jackets:

Will the former NJI pilots on the Gucci Jet transition over to the Globals on a one-for-one basis or will they leave the Gulfstreams for whatever seats are available on the incoming Phenom 300s, CL300/605s, etc.? Do all current Netjets pilots have allocated seniority numbers that will be applied as the Gulfstreams depart? If you are a current (and former NJI) G450/550 pilot, what is the likelihood that you will be sitting in a Global as they arrive? Or will Gulfstream pilots basically bid whatever is available (from Beechjet to Global) based on their seniority?

Again, not trying to start a grenade launching match or heated arguments - I understand it is a sensitive issue. Just curious and trying to understand how that process will work.

PMs also welcome.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Slightly off topic. Probably a political Netjets "hot potato" but a few basic questions that still have not been answered for me. Please prepare your flak jackets:

Will the former NJI pilots on the Gucci Jet transition over to the Globals on a one-for-one basis or will they leave the Gulfstreams for whatever seats are available on the incoming Phenom 300s, CL300/605s, etc.?

While there might be some displacements from the Gulfstream to the Global, so far ALL of the Global LINE PILOT positions have been filled by straight seniority open bid. We're talking single-digit former BBJ folks and low double-digit Falcon, X, and G-200 people. Meanwhile, there are many questions and complaints in regard to how the Training, Standards, and Check Airmen positions (called Supplemental Duty Positions or SDP) have been filled thus far since a few of those positions went to relatively junior GV pilots and several more were awarded to REALLY junior GIV pilots. Seniority is only applied as a "tie breaker" when awarding those positions which of course means seniority wasn't really a factor at all. That has a lot of folks really in a twist.

Do all current Netjets pilots have allocated seniority numbers that will be applied as the Gulfstreams depart?All NJI pilots were assigned a "virtual" seniority number based on date of hire several years ago which became an actual seniority number upon full integration in late 2010.

If you are a current (and former NJI) G450/550 pilot, what is the likelihood that you will be sitting in a Global as they arrive? I place my odds of flying a Global at 1%. IF the company rigs the displacement game as described below, I MIGHT end up in a Global. Far more likely I'll end up in a CL300 after they pry my decrepit, old hands from the yoke of a 550. I've been in the 450/550/V fleet for 7 years (and the GIV for eight years before that) and hold a seniority number in the top 20% of the company.

Or will Gulfstream pilots basically bid whatever is available (from Beechjet to Global) based on their seniority? Part of this answer depends on the new contract. Right now, if I could magically be senior enough to be awarded an open Global spot, I would lose the "pay protection" that was created by an integration LOA and start being paid according to the current CBA pay scale for my years of seniority. The vast majority of GV fleet pilots would suffer a pay cut under this scenario. Now, when my fleet is placed in disposal, eventually there will be a "displacement bid." The company says "okay folks, there are "x" seats in the Global, "y" seats in the CL300, and "z" seats in the Phenom. If I'm in the displacement "window" and I bid for a particular airplane, I lose my pay protection. If, however, I DON'T bid, I will just get assigned one of the leftovers and KEEP my pay protection for a period of time (3 years, I think). Hopefully, a new contract with much higher pay rates will be in place by the time displacement rolls around so that people can stop worrying about this crap.

Again, not trying to start a grenade launching match or heated arguments - I understand it is a sensitive issue. Just curious and trying to understand how that process will work.

The fly in the ointment is, when the GIV pilots and then the GV pilots start getting displaced, the company is totally within their rights to say "okay folks, there are "x" seats in the Global and you Gulfstream guys in the displacement window are ALL being assigned to the Global and we don't care what your seniority number is. If that happens? Whoooooo boy. Open warfare. Chaos. Dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria.

PMs also welcome.

Answers in red.

Timing is also important here because GIV guys will probably start getting displaced later this year and I THINK most will end up in the Phenom as copilots or scattered to some of the existing fleets as holes open up. It will be a bit of a moving target since the last 450/550 isn't scheduled to go until 2018 and a LOT will change over the next five years.

Bottom line, there are a LOT of unanswered questions for us too because we don't know what games the company might play to foment continued division within the pilot group since negotiations begin in, oh yeah, a MONTH.

 

[johnsonrod]

Answers in red.

Timing is also important here because GIV guys will probably start getting displaced later this year and I THINK most will end up in the Phenom as copilots or scattered to some of the existing fleets as holes open up. It will be a bit of a moving target since the last 450/550 isn't scheduled to go until 2018 and a LOT will change over the next five years.

Bottom line, there are a LOT of unanswered questions for us too because we don't know what games the company might play to foment continued division within the pilot group since negotiations begin in, oh yeah, a MONTH.

Very thorough response! I know it is a difficult and still nebulous topic for all parties there.

Thanks

 

[rajflyboy]

Globals are awesome. Everyone will love them. Perfect machine for flying anywhere in the world. Solid, safe, stable airplane with great range, speed and comfort.

 

[CE750Driver]

Gunshotdraw, Eyers and Noe both made it very clear in Recurrent that NO NJI personel would be placed in anything but a Class 4 aircraft. I think you hit the nail on the head, but it will be the CL605, not the CL300, as the 300 is not a Class 4 airplane.

Im in the top 15 percent seniority wise, and I'm betting I won't see a larger aircraft for at least 10 years or so, as they slide the NJI personel in front of me.

It is what it is.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Gunshotdraw, Eyers and Noe both made it very clear in Recurrent that NO NJI personel would be placed in anything but a Class 4 aircraft. I think you hit the nail on the head, but it will be the CL605, not the CL300, as the 300 is not a Class 4 airplane.

Im in the top 15 percent seniority wise, and I'm betting I won't see a larger aircraft for at least 10 years or so, as they slide the NJI personel in front of me.

It is what it is.

I'm hoping the 40,000 lbs distinction will be erased in the new contract because I'd rather displace to the CL 300 than the 605. I'm also hoping the pay scale goes up enough to erase the pay protection issues that continue to serve as a source of resentment and division within the pilot group.

As for Bill and Shane, they will either game the displacement system at Jordy's direction to foment pilot division, or they will let it roll on a straight seniority basis. I have no earthly idea which way that will go. Like I said, a LOT is going to change before the last Gulfstream departs the pattern.

 

[CorpCaptain]

And we won't even talk about the billionaire from the tour before last that utterly refuses the company's every attempt at giving him a Global demo flight. He wants a share in a 650. I fear we will lose him in 2018 if/when the last 550 departs the pattern.

I have it on good authority that Gulfstream is in the deliberation process of starting another manufacturing line to get current/future 650 orders on the ramp faster. This decision was due to the high # of 6000's coming out of warranty in the next 2 years. Not sure if the NJA order will help or ultimitely hurt them in the long run.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I have it on good authority that Gulfstream is in the deliberation process of starting another manufacturing line to get current/future 650 orders on the ramp faster. This decision was due to the high # of 6000's coming out of warranty in the next 2 years. Not sure if the NJA order will help or ultimitely hurt them in the long run.

A few months go, I got lucky and Delta upgraded me on a flight from SAV to ATL. Who should sit next to me but a senior Gulfstream VP who told me the G650 production goal for 2013 is north of 30 units and somewhere around 50 units in 2014. That's more than five BILLION dollars worth of airplanes in only 2 years. They have people standing in line to buy that airplane. I don't think they are too worried about Bombardier.

 

[BentOver]

I think it is safe to ask... "What would Santulli have done? Who would he have ordered from?" And I think everyone knows the answer to that. The Godfather of fractional knew what he was doing sales/customer wise..

I'm sure the Globals are fine a/c, but a Gulfstream is a Gulfstream... They are the cream of the crop, it doesn't get any better...

IMO Netjets will get some quality Global sales.. But I'm almost positive they would have done better with Gulfstream and a possible 650 order...

Leave it to the bell hop to pick the wrong $50 million dollar a/c

 

[CALRepublic]

Is not just about the Globals, I'm sure Bombardier offered Sokol a deal he couldn't pass on.

If you're Sokol and Bombardier approaches you and says " Globals at this price, CL300/605s at this price, plus we'll take some old Junkers off your hands".

What would you do? Hell he paid Gulfstream $40 mil just to cancel future deliveries. That tells me he got a heck of deal from Bombardier

 

[gutshotdraw]

Is not just about the Globals, I'm sure Bombardier offered Sokol a deal he couldn't pass on.

If you're Sokol and Bombardier approaches you and says " Globals at this price, CL300/605s at this price, plus we'll take some old Junkers off your hands".

What would you do? Hell he paid Gulfstream $40 mil just to cancel future deliveries. That tells me he got a heck of deal from Bombardier

Exactamundo.

Gulfstream wouldn't deal. Not on the 280. Not on more 450's or 550's. And certainly not on 650's. Gulfstream wants list price on everything. Why wouldn't they? People are throwing money at them.

I had to laugh when Uncle Warren was on TV answering a question about why NJ picked the Global. He said he was just ordering what his customers wanted. Uh-huh. The huuuuuge discounts and sweet exchange deal from Bombardier had NOTHING to do with it, right?


BTW, list price on a 650 is around $65 million with paint and interior.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Let's impress our customer by sending a tire they need by ship to Hawaii.

Ocean ship.


Yes. The Billion(s) Dollar Tire debacle... And all that was needed to make a final decision on how to spend billions I'm sure.

A fun and "feel good" emotional response which resulted in a business decision to go the other way.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Let's impress our customer by sending a tire they need by ship to Hawaii.

Ocean ship.


Yes. The Billion(s) Dollar Tire debacle... And all that was needed to make a final decision on how to spend billions I'm sure.

A fun and "feel good" emotional response which resulted in a business decision to go the other way.

If NJ is making billion(s) dollar decisions based on a mistake made by a $50K/yr expediter in SAV/LGB/wherever, then I would be REALLY worried about any of their business decisions going forward.

Great story, though.

 

[Pervis]

He said he was just ordering what his customers wanted. Uh-huh. The huuuuuge discounts and sweet exchange deal from Bombardier had NOTHING to do with it, right?


BTW, list price on a 650 is around $65 million with paint and interior.

Most customers want price point. Gulfstream still has a very loyal following, but at $65 million each, I bet the mood changes. Some very insistant G owners are finding the Global is a real surprise. Word is it's so quiet on board you can here the crew speak from the back of the cabin. A long flight with far less noise is a huge difference. It's fast, extremely long range, and a lot cheaper. Gulfstream is no longer the only kid in town in their market, and they will suffer if they don't learn how to compete.

 

[CorpCaptain]

Most customers want price point. Gulfstream still has a very loyal following, but at $65 million each, I bet the mood changes. Some very insistant G owners are finding the Global is a real surprise. Word is it's so quiet on board you can here the crew speak from the back of the cabin. A long flight with far less noise is a huge difference. It's fast, extremely long range, and a lot cheaper. Gulfstream is no longer the only kid in town in their market, and they will suffer if they don't learn how to compete.

It's quiet alright. Especially when you are sitting in Outer Mongolia with a RAT CAS message that you cant get extinguished. Great airplane, but im a firm believer that you get what you pay for. The Batch III upgrades will be nice in another year. Hopefully.

 

[Pervis]

Gulfstreams break too, and location really doesn't seem to matter to them either. In fact fleet availability for all four of our G models is on the low side today compared to nearly all the other fleets, and I'm not talking about scheduled mx.

The 'get what you pay for' doesn't really apply when you're discussing high end products. When the G650 goes for $65 million each and Globals go for the low $50s, all else considered, I'll save the millions.

 

[G4dude]

Gulfstreams break too, and location really doesn't seem to matter to them either. In fact fleet availability for all four of our G models is on the low side today compared to nearly all the other fleets, and I'm not talking about scheduled mx.

The 'get what you pay for' doesn't really apply when you're discussing high end products. When the G650 goes for $65 million each and Globals go for the low $50s, all else considered, I'll save the millions.

To my surprise, being a "Guffstream" guy, I tend to agree with Pervis about how the Global will do at NJA.