Endorsement Twist

[FLpilot2002]

Question,

A pre-private has all endorsements for solo flight. His Medical/SPC is properly filled out. Twist..He does all his training in a "complex" airplane. Does he need a complex endorsement??

Wouldn't the Medical be enough for make and model??

Which would mean he could fly to his practical and if he passed he would not be able to fly home.

But that would prompt the question...Can an airplane fly without a PIC??

What would the guru's say??

 

[Rick1128]

Logicly the solo endorsement in the complex aircraft should be enough. as long as the endorsement was also entered into the students logbook. The reg states that a flight instructor must give the pilot flight and ground training in the complex aircraft. And make a one time endorsement in the logbook. There is no requirement on what that endorsement must contain.

However, we are dealing with a government agency (FAA), so we can consider that logic is thrown out the window. So I would make a logbook entry just before my student went for their checkride to cover that situation.

 

[FLpilot2002]

Thats what I thought. But others tried to convince me otherwise. My choice would be to give the endorsement before the first solo. CYA. Thanks

 

[cjh]

There's really no alternative to giving the endorsement before the solo. 61.31(e) requires such to act as PIC, and as you know, a solo student is PIC in the aircraft.

 

[Rick1128]

I would say that you do not have to give that endorsement before solo. The reasoning is that you have endorsed his/her student pilot certificate and logbook for solo, and a solo endorsement is type specific. The high performance endorsement is not type specific. So it can wait until the student is ready for his/her checkride.

Another concern I would have is that giving the student an open type endorsement like the high performance endorsement is, could encourage the student to fly other high performance aircraft without a type endorsement on his/her student pilot certificate. Unfortunately there are a lot of student pilots out there that will take 2 or 3 miles if you give them an inch.

 

[Mickey]

If the student has a complex endorsement they still can't go out and solo any other airplane. They can't even solo a C152 unless that is what their solo endorsement says. Giving the complex endorsement is required and does not give them carte blanche to do what they please.
Good luck and take care.

 

[Rick1128]

Mickey, just because the regs say they can't there is always a few who will if given an inch will take 3 or 4 miles. And if something happens, the instructor who signed them off could be in for an interesting time in court. I have seen BS like this before. I saw a student pilot who was giving scenic rides in an aircraft that I know was not on his student pilot's certificate and charging for those rides.

 

[Rich Man]

Sorry you are wrong

I would say that you do not have to give that endorsement before solo. The reasoning is that you have endorsed his/her student pilot certificate and logbook for solo, and a solo endorsement is type specific. The high performance endorsement is not type specific. So it can wait until the student is ready for his/her checkride.

Another concern I would have is that giving the student an open type endorsement like the high performance endorsement is, could encourage the student to fly other high performance aircraft without a type endorsement on his/her student pilot certificate. Unfortunately there are a lot of student pilots out there that will take 2 or 3 miles if you give them an inch.

For 1, he was talking about the Complex, not High performance, but I'll let that slide, cuz for the sake of discussion is the same effect.

A solo endorsement both in the Medical and Log Book, are type specific, however, the regs are clear, if you are going to act as PIC of a complex airplane, you need a complex endorsement, a student flying any A/C solo, is acting as PIC. therefore the endorsement is mandatory.

Like someone else said previosuly, u would think that the solo endorsement being on a complex plane would be enough, but I can guarantee, if anything happens it is your @$$. So do yourself a favor and cover every hole.

If you trusted your student to fly that complex, he can fly any complex out there, for as far as complex goes, it just refers to flaps, constant speed prop, and retracts. If your student can remember to reduce power before reducing RPM's, increase RPM's before increasing power, not using flaps above Vfe, and lower the gear every time before he lands, and not fly any faster than Vle with the gear extended. he can have his endorsemnt and fly any complex.

If he flies the complex solo with no endorsement, both you and him will have broken the FAR's. but only you will ever get heat for it.

and realistically speaking.... it's just a little more writing you need to do?

Rich!

P.S. I agree with the above, if your student is an idiot, and wants to go ahead and do moronic things and get him self in trouble, no FAR and no Endorsement is going to prevent him from it, but if he is that stupid... shoot him, at least when they come to get you it will be for something worth it.... (JK)

 

[cjh]

Re: Sorry you are wrong

I agree with the above, if your student is an idiot, and wants to go ahead and do moronic things and get him self in trouble, no FAR and no Endorsement is going to prevent him from it

And at least, when he gets busted, he'll have all the proper endorsements!

 

[Rick1128]

One of the things I was refering to was legal issues. Not the FAA legal, but lawsuits. If your student is an idiot and takes the endorsement to mean he can fly any HP/Complex aircraft and hurts or kills himself or someone else, you can plan on being sued. Even if you are ultimately found not at fault, it is going to cost you a large sum on money. I do not know of any CFI who makes that much.

In time everyone on this board will find out that the Insurance companies and lawyers in reality have more effect on what we do as pilots than the FAA.

I talked with my POI this morning and in our conversation this site can up. He is just out of the FAA Academy so he is indoctrinated into the FAA book way of doing and looking at things. The older inspectors tell me that the solo endorseement is enough. But my POI said you need to do the 'complex' endorsement before solo.

However, he also stated that to protect yourself you can put restrictions on the endorsement. And this FSDO actively encourages endorsement restrictions.

 

[cjh]

Rick,

With all due respect, your argument doesn't make sense. What you're saying is that your theoretical student is sane enough to be responsible with a solo endorsement but will somehow go nuts given the complex endorsement he needs to be legal.

It's your job to explain to the student the limitations you're placing on his priviledges. If your student doesn't respect the fact that as a student his complex endorsement is only good for that one plane, then I guarantee you he's also not going to respect that his solo priviledges are restriced to specific aircraft.

I would also question why you would even be training someone at all that you consider that irresponsible.

As for litigation, if someone is looking for a reason to sue you, the presence of a complex endorsement is not going to be the magic "gotcha". They'll find a reason. On the other hand, omitting an endorsement the regs clearly say must be there implies you have given the student solo priviledges in a complex aircraft without providing the necessary training to receive the complex endorsement.

Bottom line is that you can restrict student priviledges by adding limitations, but you can't change the reg requirements out of a fear of being sued.

 

[Rich Man]

See, now we agree

100% I agree with you this time.

And for that reason, I always put restrictions on my students endorsemnts, it is really necessary, and as the Instructor, the restrictor can be as tight as good for the date, that way, he cant go flying any other day you are not aware off.

Still I think the best thing is to use a trainer for primary flight instruction, not a Complex nor a High Perf. I kno it can be done, Im Just no willing to put my Ticket on the line for something like that. Honestly a pre-private has little bussines flying a complex or High Perf A/C.

Going back to Stupidity, even with a restriction, Dumb@$$ can still take the plane and do whatever he wants if he/she is dumb enough, there's just no cure for stupidity...


Rich!

 

[Rick1128]

Answers to the points made above.

1. Student pilots are like buck privates and 2nd Lts. They are expected to do dumb things. And usually do.

2. Some students tend to have selective hearing. They hear only what they want to hear. Not what you told them.

3. What students do in your presence can and generally is different from what they do when you are not around. Ask any school teacher.

4. Finally it comes down to what lawyers call 'Due Dilligence'. That restriction on the student's endorsement is your proof that you told him. You can say 'I told him this or that' but it really doesn't hold a lot of water in court. A piece of paper with a date and signature does.

What it really comes down to is documentation.

 

[cjh]

Answers to the points made above.

1. Student pilots are like buck privates and 2nd Lts. They are expected to do dumb things. And usually do.

2. Some students tend to have selective hearing. They hear only what they want to hear. Not what you told them.

3. What students do in your presence can and generally is different from what they do when you are not around. Ask any school teacher.

None of these things has anything to do with whether you, as his instructor, properly endorse his certificate and logbook. If anything, it could be argued that failing to do so only teaches the student that he can in fact get away with ignoring or abusing the regs. EG: the regs require the endorsement to act as PIC in a complex aircraft, you don't provide it, he flies a complex plane as PIC anyway, and he learns WHAT from this? And if anything happened you for some reason think an attorney would look at the absence of the required endorsement as a good thing?

4. Finally it comes down to what lawyers call 'Due Dilligence'. That restriction on the student's endorsement is your proof that you told him. You can say 'I told him this or that' but it really doesn't hold a lot of water in court. A piece of paper with a date and signature does.

What it really comes down to is documentation.

No, the ENDORSEMENT in the logbook is proof you taught him. The RESTRICTION is an indication you put limits on his freedoms, presumably in the interest of safety. And for the record, I have never inidcated there shouldn't be restrictions. In fact, I whole heartedly support the idea. What I don't support is skipping over FAR requirements, in this case omitting a required endorsement because YOU prefer not to give it.

 

[avbug]

All the argumentation about student responsibility is moot.

The solo endorsement is completely different from a complex endorsement. If you intend to solo a student in a complex airplane, then he or she must have a complex endorsement, period.

If you solo a student in a conventional gear airplane, then he or she must have a tailwheel endorsement, pure and simple.

If you solo a student in a high performance airplane, then he or she must have a high performance endorsement.

While the signature required by 14 CFR 61.87(1)(iv)&(v) is aircraft specific, this does not alleviate the responsibility to endorse the student in accordance with 61.31(e)(1)(ii) (additional training required for operating complex airplanes).

This is not a matter of one endorsement covering another. Clearly, these are separate and distinct endorsements. You must endorse the student's logbook for solo privileges, identifying specific make and model. Does this eliminate the requirement to endorse the student pilot certificate? Of course not. Likewise, it doesn't eliminate the requirement to endorse the student for operations acting as pilot in command of a complex airplane.

On a practical note, if you have any concerns about the student acting as PIC of a complex airplane, then don't solo him. If you have any doubt as to the intent or ability of the student, then you have no business making any endorsements at all.