Endeavor attrition

[Twisted Mind]

Cluch,

What is it exactly you are planning to do if you were placed in a similar "uncomfortable" position?

 

[CRJ puppy]

I think it is interesting listening to many talk about getting rate resets and then shutting down Endeavor. That doesn't make much sense because once the other carriers get their rates reset and start losing 200's they will have the same attrition problem as Endeavor.

The flexibility Endeavor gives Delta is huge in that they don't need to negotiate with a DCI carrier when they want to make a change. The economies of scale are a large cost savings as well because Delta is using their purchasing clout at Endeavor on everything from office supplies to benefit administration.

So for all salivating over the idea that once you take you pay cuts the Endeavor aircraft will start coming your way, you may have another thing coming.

None of this is any different from the relationship that Comair had with Delta as a "wholly owned". I see no reason why Delta wouldn't shut Endeavor down as they did Comair, if and when their usefulness is no longer compelling.

 

[gojo]

None of this is any different from the relationship that Comair had with Delta as a "wholly owned". I see no reason why Delta wouldn't shut Endeavor down as they did Comair, if and when their usefulness is no longer compelling.

You're crazy if you think this is the exact relationship they had with Comair. Look at the differences in the contract for starters. If they could've put Comair through bankruptcy they would've done the same to them. In my opinion the only similarity other than being wholly owned is as Endeavor parks airplanes eventually everyone will be topped out on their respective scale, but remember it's a 12 and 4 year scale now.

 

[Freebrd]

I believe when DAL went into bankruptcy CMR was included too.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Delta did not shutter: ASA, Compass, and Mesaba. Am I missing any? Delta did sell Compass and Mesaba for a million an aircraft. Using that logic Endeavor is worth? I don't know how many airplanes they have.

 

[gojo]

I believe when DAL went into bankruptcy CMR was included too.

You're correct. However, they wanted more. Comair stood strong, and Delta said, "fine, we'll shut you down instead. The bankruptcy process just rams concessions down our throats, or up our a$$e$ without any recourses especially with regards to the railway labor act

 

[xjhawk]

gojo I think you have it wrong and I can see why. I am not an expert on the matter but I do know that Comair did hold strong for an industry leading regional contract. IN the process they made Delta take a serious look at having all their eggs in 1 regional basket. So that is right-but is not when Delta decided to shut down Comair. They used the carrot of more 70 seaters to make the comair pilots take concessions but those pilots never got the planes but still took concessions. All the while Delta was allowing more and more other regionals do their connection flying. Because of that, Comair was shrinking.

Then....Delta realized that the crj 200 was too expensive and was not making the kind of money they wanted. They also saw the engine overhaul and heavy checks for those same planes being a very costly expense for a plane they were willing to replace with bigger, more profitable planes. Delta also figured that their pilots wanted to press the scope issue and so Delta used the pilots union to "fight" for scope to get rid of those planes they wanted to park anyways. Yes, the pilots got a pay increase and "50 seat scope" relief, but they gave up more 76 seat scope relief. To which is my point-this was the end of Comair, they needed Comairs planes as a carrot for other not owned regionals to park more 50 seats (sky west).

 

[gojo]

gojo I think you have it wrong and I can see why. I am not an expert on the matter but I do know that Comair did hold strong for an industry leading regional contract. IN the process they made Delta take a serious look at having all their eggs in 1 regional basket. So that is right-but is not when Delta decided to shut down Comair. They used the carrot of more 70 seaters to make the comair pilots take concessions but those pilots never got the planes but still took concessions. All the while Delta was allowing more and more other regionals do their connection flying. Because of that, Comair was shrinking.

Then....Delta realized that the crj 200 was too expensive and was not making the kind of money they wanted. They also saw the engine overhaul and heavy checks for those same planes being a very costly expense for a plane they were willing to replace with bigger, more profitable planes. Delta also figured that their pilots wanted to press the scope issue and so Delta used the pilots union to "fight" for scope to get rid of those planes they wanted to park anyways. Yes, the pilots got a pay increase and "50 seat scope" relief, but they gave up more 76 seat scope relief. To which is my point-this was the end of Comair, they needed Comairs planes as a carrot for other not owned regionals to park more 50 seats (sky west).

Ah yes, that refreshes my memory. And you bring up another good point about Delta not wanting all their gags in one basket. I think this will limit the amount of Delta flying ASA/Skywest do

 

[Twisted Mind]

Xjhawk,
How is the actual attrition at Endeavor?

 

[higney85]

284 ytd.

 

[piav8r]

Any info on the CA/FO split of that 284???

 

[higney85]

Any info on the CA/FO split of that 284???

Less/more.

Sorry, don't have specifics to share.

 

[1.3XVso]

Less/more.

Sorry, don't have specifics to share.

Are you going to be downgraded? I hope a colganite doesn't bump you off. A "yes" vote is a hell of a drug!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Pinnacle pilots are a selective group of moist-nosed hosewenches. Hatecha

Technical term: hoochies.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Cluch,

What is it exactly you are planning to do if you were placed in a similar "uncomfortable" position?

Walk across the street to Taco Bell...same money and free food.....

 

[gojo]

Technical term: hoochies.

Aren't you guys classy?

 

[higney85]

Are you going to be downgraded? I hope a colganite doesn't bump you off. A "yes" vote is a hell of a drug!

Yup, yes, and not sure how any vote has to do with this situation beyond your usual way of stirring the pot.

 

[1.3XVso]

Yup, yes, and not sure how any vote has to do with this situation beyond your usual way of stirring the pot.

Stirring the pot? We are a embarrassment ! You and your koolaid union scrubs botched this ******************** up real good. Say something higney? Please enlighten us with your pro union come back! I'm not to worry about you. I know daddy purple has a warm seat for you. Best of luck.

 

[JustaNumber]

Yup, yes, and not sure how any vote has to do with this situation beyond your usual way of stirring the pot.

You don't see a connection between the vote and you getting downgraded?

9E pilots vote in a crap concessionary contract, one that obliterates F/O pay. F/O's would rather put food on their kids' table than actually work for what was voted in, so they leave at the first opportunity. Endeavor can't seem to find any replacement pilots willing to fill the gap, so captains get downgraded. What am I missing here?

 

[1.3XVso]

You don't see a connection between the vote and you getting downgraded?

9E pilots vote in a crap concessionary contract, one that obliterates F/O pay. F/O's would rather put food on their kids' table than actually work for what was voted in, so they leave at the first opportunity. Endeavor can't seem to find any replacement pilots willing to fill the gap, so captains get downgraded. What am I missing here?

Higney and the gang want to keep telling themselves that they did a good job by voting yes. It's them vs the industry. So the sorrow story that goes something like this " but we had no other choice" ain't Gona work.

 

[gojo]

You don't see a connection between the vote and you getting downgraded?

9E pilots vote in a crap concessionary contract, one that obliterates F/O pay. F/O's would rather put food on their kids' table than actually work for what was voted in, so they leave at the first opportunity. Endeavor can't seem to find any replacement pilots willing to fill the gap, so captains get downgraded. What am I missing here?

Funny thing is a lot of FO'S voted yes. Many figured that the Bribe money would help subsidize their first year pay when starting at another regional.

 

[1.3XVso]

Funny thing is a lot of FO'S voted yes. Many figured that the Bribe money would help subsidize their first year pay when starting at another regional.

Yes, I have flown with a bunch that voted yes. I wish I can post their words verbatim. They got what they wished for. Hopefully it was a expensive lesson. AIrline 101.

 

[CRJ puppy]

You're crazy if you think this is the exact relationship they had with Comair. Look at the differences in the contract for starters. If they could've put Comair through bankruptcy they would've done the same to them. In my opinion the only similarity other than being wholly owned is as Endeavor parks airplanes eventually everyone will be topped out on their respective scale, but remember it's a 12 and 4 year scale now.

Amazing how soon people forget. Delta DID take Comair through bankruptcy, filed the 1113c motion, further concessions were taken, fleet guarantees and preferential interviews were promised and look where we are 7 yrs later.

Btw, I'm not the crazy one...

 

[higney85]

Stirring the pot? We are a embarrassment ! You and your koolaid union scrubs botched this ******************** up real good. Say something higney? Please enlighten us with your pro union come back! I'm not to worry about you. I know daddy purple has a warm seat for you. Best of luck.

You are aware I wasn't involved in any part of the Mec during BK right?

 

[gojo]

Amazing how soon people forget. Delta DID take Comair through bankruptcy, filed the 1113c motion, further concessions were taken, fleet guarantees and preferential interviews were promised and look where we are 7 yrs later.

Btw, I'm not the crazy one...

I haven't forgot any of that. I'm merely saying that I think Delta felt they hadn't gone deep enough during the bankruptcy. Times were a lot different in 2006 than they are today. Go-jet was just getting started, Compass wasn't even here yet. Fuel was cheap, and they still liked the 50 seat airplanes. Just to name a few. Today they realize that they can get companies like Go-jet and Compass to do the flying a lot cheaper, and Skywest has to match the second lowest contract in 2015. Now I also Know that Delta wanted further concessions after the bankruptcy, but I think you'll agree that getting concessions out of bankruptcy isn't as easy as it is during bankruptcy. Thanks Railway Labor Act. All I'm saying, and it's only my opinion, is that if the could've put Comair in bankruptcy a second time the could've got what they wanted. Specifically 12 year Captain and 4 year FO rates. Towards the end of Comair all Captains and FO's were either at the top of their respective pay scale or close to it. That's what they wanted to fix, and they couldn't. I also realize that Endeavor may in fact end up like Comair. In fact, I don't believe or trust in much of what Delta does, and I'm working hard to distance myself from them.

 

[gojo]

Amazing how soon people forget. Delta DID take Comair through bankruptcy, filed the 1113c motion, further concessions were taken, fleet guarantees and preferential interviews were promised and look where we are 7 yrs later.

Btw, I'm not the crazy one...

To quote Bucking Bar from another web board:

"To explain how things got this way.

After Lorenzo transferred Eastern's assets to his wholly owned alter ego, Continental, and Continental left ALPA, our union was determined to never let management whipsaw us again. ALPA adopted strong language designed to prevent whipsaw by forced mergers. Delta was a beneficiary of the Texas Air mess and was never that fond of mergers (or ALPA) for that matter. (there was a abortive decertification drive then too)

It is likely the Delta MEC had advanced notice that Delta intended to buy ASA and Comair (can't prove it) but we do know the Delta MEC led a push to remove that merger language at the 1998 ALPA BOD.

Concomitant with the denial of Comair and ASA's merger request, ALPA adopted this "permitted" model which divided ALPA members into preferred and non preferred groups.

Without a real merger policy, there was no way to force real, structural, unity. In effect ALPA agreed to alter ego whipsaw, as long as it existed at the permitted aircraft level.

The perception was, and is, that express jobs are not real airline pilot jobs. That for some reason your flying, which indistinguishably mimics the flying I do, is simply a stepping stone to a real job ... and only real jobs should be protected.

But if you look at ALPA's history and it's governing documents you will quickly realize that we have reason to be hopeful that our profession will turn itself around.

Dave Behnke, ALPA's founder, famously stated "when one pilot has a problem, we all have a problem." Recently I've been noticing Capt. Behnke has been quoted by more and more mainline MEC Chairmen. That's a very hopeful sign that folks are taking another look at our roots, how we got here, and what worked. As more and more pilots who have experienced whipsaw first hand join their major brothers the politics change. As the politics change the politicians change policies. I think we are on the precipice of great things."

I believe this is why we're seeing this push to beat the regional sector down, and make them mere stepping stones again like they were 15 years ago

 

[e=mc2]

You guys made your bed, now enjoy sleeping in it. And your ALPO mnec chair will look out for XJ and Colgone regardless of any decision to keep his full time buy going. If you want a better situation start by changing something you have control over - Dump the Deadheads in the MEC!

 

[gojo]

You guys made your bed, now enjoy sleeping in it. And your ALPO mnec chair will look out for XJ and Colgone regardless of any decision to keep his full time buy going. If you want a better situation start by changing something you have control over - Dump the Deadheads in the MEC!

Oh great, another narrow minded know it all. Many of us here had no part in how this proverbial bed was made. Some like myself were happy at Mesaba after surviving our first shame bankruptcy. And we sure as H$ll didn't ask to be bought by Pinnacle and get drug through another one. As for changing something I have control over, please give me some examples of what you have done to make this industry better, and how dumping the Deadheads in the MEC would help. They can only do so much, as much as they're allowed to

 

[Flyer1015]

1.3XVSo,

What's up with this internal fighting still going on? Rumors of a downgrade being pushed back because Mesaba/Colgan reps are fighting against Bloch quotas. Kind ironic, when their planes were getting parked they would stick to the letter of the Bloch award to get their left seats in 9E planes. Now that 9E's original planes are being parked, all hell breaks loose and they are peddling backwards to save their own seats.

 

[Flyer1015]

That was the best option, but you were lucky at the time because all the CA's at endeavor thought they had hit the jackpot and Virgin/Spirit/JB were a step down. Now you have sim center APD's trying to get on at Spirit.

True. At Spirit, the most junior Capain award is about to become a Jan 2011 DOH. I know several 9E FOs that left before I did and they went to Spirit in 2011. Could you imagine? The FO who got his SIC type from the sim center APD will now be the Captain on an A320 with a newhire FO that was the same APD that did his ride. That's gotta be awkward.