End ALPA - Begin War

[SaturnPilot]

Shall we go into how the formula was changed at the 2002 BOD.....so that DW didn't have to take a paycut after 911......

DW did take a paycut after 911...just not as much as he would have under the older formula. If you want to go back to the old formula, why not just make that a priority for your reps at this years BOD? Need we get rid of ALPA because of this?

 

[JoeMerchant]

DW did take a paycut after 911...just not as much as he would have under the older formula. If you want to go back to the old formula, why not just make that a priority for your reps at this years BOD? Need we get rid of ALPA because of this?

Keep it up Saturn....you are helping to make the point for those of us who are fed up with ALPA....The BOD is a highly political body....much like the US Congress....Deals are cut to protect people....That doesn't mean the "little people" who actually pay the bills agree with them....

It was highly unethical to change the formula so that DW didn't have to feel the pain that so many of the members felt after 911....

The Herndon elite lost touch a long time ago....

Keep it up.....it helps to undermine ALPA.....

 

[PCL_128]

No, ALPA lacks credibility. And the below is rock solid concerning credibility.

Well, lucky, as someone who is so pissed off about ALPA's change in the age 60 policy, maybe you should know a little bit about Herb Holland's history (the author of the email that Joe posted). Herb actually filed a lawsuit trying to get rid of the Age 60 rule. The lawsuit failed, of course, but it was an obsession of his. His disdain for ALPA was rooted in this maniacal obsession. He didn't just want to increase the age to 65, he wanted no limits whatsoever. He was even willing to have new health evaluation requirements imposed on pilots of all ages just so he could get the age limit changed. He always talked of how he could pass any health exam, so screw the guys who couldn't. He was emblematic of the "I've got mine, screw everyone else" philosophy. Thank God he hit 60 about a month before the rule changed.

So, you can get an idea of where Herb's true vendetta comes from. He despised ALPA's stance on the Age 60 rule under Captain Woerth, and it was his obsession. As for his implying that there was some sort of grand conspiracy to unseat him from office, he's playing loose with the facts. His own pilot group was crying out for his recall. Nobody at National was out to get him. He got removed because his own pilots didn't trust him.

In short, he has zero credibility and a bunch of ulterior motives.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Keep it up Saturn....you are helping to make the point for those of us who are fed up with ALPA....The BOD is a highly political body....much like the US Congress....Deals are cut to protect people....That doesn't mean the "little people" who actually pay the bills agree with them....

It was highly unethical to change the formula so that DW didn't have to feel the pain that so many of the members felt after 911....

The Herndon elite lost touch a long time ago....

Keep it up.....it helps to undermine ALPA.....

Joe, you've pointed out that you don't like what happened with the compensation of the president in the 02 BOD...and that is fine. I'm asking what you are proposing to do now. Are you going to push to change the formula back to the avg of the 5?

I slightly disagree with you about the makeup of the BOD. While there are a lot of politics that go on at that level, there is also a large sum of reps that don't play into the political game and vote their concience. You can get involved and vote your concience on issues like these, or you can sit on the sidelines and complain when others vote on them.

Why do you want to undermine ALPA? What is your alternative to ALPA that will have the same power and resources?

 

[PCL_128]

Saturn, you're asking Joe to look to the future rather than obsessing on the past. That's simply not Joe's way. All he can do is b!tch and whine about what happened years ago. He has no ideas and no solutions. Just complaints, most of which have no basis in reality.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, lucky, as someone who is so pissed off about ALPA's change in the age 60 policy, maybe you should know a little bit about Herb Holland's history (the author of the email that Joe posted). Herb actually filed a lawsuit trying to get rid of the Age 60 rule. The lawsuit failed, of course, but it was an obsession of his. His disdain for ALPA was rooted in this maniacal obsession. He didn't just want to increase the age to 65, he wanted no limits whatsoever. He was even willing to have new health evaluation requirements imposed on pilots of all ages just so he could get the age limit changed. He always talked of how he could pass any health exam, so screw the guys who couldn't. He was emblematic of the "I've got mine, screw everyone else" philosophy. Thank God he hit 60 about a month before the rule changed.

So, you can get an idea of where Herb's true vendetta comes from. He despised ALPA's stance on the Age 60 rule under Captain Woerth, and it was his obsession. As for his implying that there was some sort of grand conspiracy to unseat him from office, he's playing loose with the facts. His own pilot group was crying out for his recall. Nobody at National was out to get him. He got removed because his own pilots didn't trust him.

In short, he has zero credibility and a bunch of ulterior motives.

Would you like to address any of the issues raised regarding the compensation....Age 60 has been changed and ALPA helped it to change....That isn't the issue that was brought up....you are trying to deflect the issue....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, you've pointed out that you don't like what happened with the compensation of the president in the 02 BOD...and that is fine. I'm asking what you are proposing to do now. Are you going to push to change the formula back to the avg of the 5?

I slightly disagree with you about the makeup of the BOD. While there are a lot of politics that go on at that level, there is also a large sum of reps that don't play into the political game and vote their concience. You can get involved and vote your concience on issues like these, or you can sit on the sidelines and complain when others vote on them.

Why do you want to undermine ALPA? What is your alternative to ALPA that will have the same power and resources?

1. Actually it was the avg. of the highest 6 carriers prior to 2002.....Then it was changed to the avg. of the highest 3.....

2. At that same BOD.....the regional MECs of ASA, CMR, and EGL brought several resolutions to the floor to deal with the predatory scope issue in ALPA....in the end they were all watered down to the point of being useless....Yes some may not play the political "game".....but it isn't enough....

3. I think ALPA's very existance must be threatened before any meaningful reform happens....even then it may not happen....In that case it is time to start over......

 

[SaturnPilot]

Would you like to address any of the issues raised regarding the compensation.

I'm trying to address that issue now...are we all going to call our status reps and make this a big issue in the next BOD, or are we going to sit on the sidelines and note every single fault that we see and then give up like Capt. Rep Richard?

 

[PCL_128]

Would you like to address any of the issues raised regarding the compensation....Age 60 has been changed and ALPA helped it to change....That isn't the issue that was brought up....you are trying to deflect the issue....

I'm not deflecting the issue at all. Knowing the man's character and history gives everyone a window into his motives and his credibility. Nothing the man says is credible, so the entire email is useless. He has a vendetta against the Association, and that clouds his entire credibility. Period.

As for Officer compensation, you and I have discussed that issue ad nauseum. No need to go into it again.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm trying to address that issue now...are we all going to call our status reps and make this a big issue in the next BOD, or are we going to sit on the sidelines and note every single fault that we see and then give up like Capt. Rep Richard?

....you go right ahead and try to work within the system....good luck....the rest of us will continue to attack from the outside.....

If ALPA leaders had any integrity they wouldn't have done this in the first place.....It shouldn't have to be "fixed" from the membership thru our status reps....

ALPA leaders are like Congressmen....they want to hold onto their power and their pay....

 

[SaturnPilot]

1. Actually it was the avg. of the highest 6 carriers prior to 2002.....Then it was changed to the avg. of the highest 3.....

2. At that same BOD.....the regional MECs of ASA, CMR, and EGL brought several resolutions to the floor to deal with the predatory scope issue in ALPA....in the end they were all watered down to the point of being useless....Yes some may not play the political "game".....but it isn't enough....

3. I think ALPA's very existance must be threatened before any meaningful reform happens....even then it may not happen....In that case it is time to start over......

1. sorry...6

2. sounds like the resolutions didn't convince enough via the democratic process. Were they proposing brand scope or something?

3. since the BOD has the ultimate power to reform, and the BOD is made up of simple line pilots like you and me, I don't see how threatening ALPA's existence is necessary to jar the line pilot rep into action. What reform is it you propose?

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA leaders are like Congressmen....they want to hold onto their power and their pay....

Yeah, I know I was making a fortune and getting all kinds of time off......oh wait, no I wasn't! I wasn't getting anymore money and I had absolutely no time off. As usual, Joe is out in left field.

 

[SaturnPilot]

....you go right ahead and try to work within the system....good luck....the rest of us will continue to attack from the outside.....

If ALPA leaders had any integrity they wouldn't have done this in the first place.....It shouldn't have to be "fixed" from the membership thru our status reps....

ALPA leaders are like Congressmen....they want to hold onto their power and their pay....

I have tried to work the system from the inside and I've gotten some meaningful things accomplished. Why don't you and the others who are attacking from the outside join me and then we can have even more votes to accomplish more change?

I don't see why the members of the BOD want to hold onto their pay...it is a volunteer position...no extra pay.

 

[SaturnPilot]

If ALPA leaders had any integrity they wouldn't have done this in the first place.....It shouldn't have to be "fixed" from the membership thru our status reps....

I almost forgot...if I don't call my status rep to let him know this issue is important to me, how is he going to know what I (the membership) want??? Telepathy?? Magic??

Saying things "shouldn't" have to be done does not confront the reality that things still have to get done. I shouldn't have to instruct a 121 First Officer that at or above 18,000 it is pronouced "FL180", but the reality is that if I didn't do this the other day, I would have been flying around for 4 days with somebody checking in at "25 thousand climbing to 30 thousand"

 

[JoeMerchant]

I have tried to work the system from the inside and I've gotten some meaningful things accomplished. Why don't you and the others who are attacking from the outside join me and then we can have even more votes to accomplish more change?

I don't see why the members of the BOD want to hold onto their pay...it is a volunteer position...no extra pay.

The pay I'm referring to is the ALPA national officers....many BOD members like the political game and hope to move up the foodchain.....Many of them also like the ALPA leave and use it very liberally....

Many of us have tried working on the inside and it went nowhere.....Some of the ASA and CMR pilots who were involved in the RJDC lawsuit first worked with ALPA back in 1995 during the first scope committee....Here we are 13 years later and the scope problem is worse than it was back in 1995.....How did that happen?

I've given up on ALPA and so have many other's....you and Rez. need to go back to Herndon and try there....you won't convince us.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I almost forgot...if I don't call my status rep to let him know this issue is important to me, how is he going to know what I (the membership) want??? Telepathy?? Magic??

Saying things "shouldn't" have to be done does not confront the reality that things still have to get done. I shouldn't have to instruct a 121 First Officer that at or above 18,000 it is pronouced "FL180", but the reality is that if I didn't do this the other day, I would have been flying around for 4 days with somebody checking in at "25 thousand climbing to 30 thousand"

...as the email I present illustrates....many have known this was a problem for sometime...but politics trumped doing the right thing....

If the leadership still doesn't realize it is a problem...then they are more clueless than I thought....

Tell me this....why does ALPA like to make executive compensation an issue with airline management....but doesn't like it when the same issue is raised with them.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

The pay I'm referring to is the ALPA national officers....many BOD members like the political game and hope to move up the foodchain.....Many of them also like the ALPA leave and use it very liberally....

Many of us have tried working on the inside and it went nowhere.....Some of the ASA and CMR pilots who were involved in the RJDC lawsuit first worked with ALPA back in 1995 during the first scope committee....Here we are 13 years later and the scope problem is worse than it was back in 1995.....How did that happen?

I've given up on ALPA and so have many other's....you and Rez. need to go back to Herndon and try there....you won't convince us.....

If your reps are using ALPA leave too liberally, then I would suggest making that an issue.

You ask why the scope issue is worse now than in 1995...other than bankruptcy, I would venture to guess that these issues are worse now because those of you who want to change them keep quitting, instead of staying on the BOD to garner a voting block large enough to actually get something done.

I have noticed that you have given up on ALPA. Just think what a tremendous organization ALPA would be today had you and your quitter friends actually stayed in power.

You want me to go to Herndon with Rez. What specifically do you want us to accomplish while there?

 

[SaturnPilot]

...as the email I present illustrates....many have known this was a problem for sometime...but politics trumped doing the right thing....

If the leadership still doesn't realize it is a problem...then they are more clueless than I thought....

Tell me this....why does ALPA like to make executive compensation an issue with airline management....but doesn't like it when the same issue is raised with them.....

Well, the BOD changes faces quite frequently and unless you continually make your thoughts known that this is an important issue for your rep to fight for in this years BOD, then it will simply die. If enough of the membership was upset about avg of 3 vs. avg of 6 compensation and made a stink about it, I assure you something would get done. Until then it is not high on the priority list of the majority of the membership.

ALPA makes comparisons to executive compensation to rally the troops. It is an emotional issue that pilots will rally around to become more militant. Rationally, large variances in executive compensation will not make but a fraction of a difference in money available to me. When you see ALPA's presidential compensation, it again becomes an emotional issue. If the president worked for free, would we pay any less dues? No.

You ask why ALPA doesn't like it when this issue is brought up, but I don't know what instance you are speaking of. Are you asking about bringing this issue up to status reps, or asking national about it? I wasn't aware that ALPA didn't like answering questions on this issue.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What do they mix with the ALPA koolaid over there at Pinnacle....SaturnPilot, PCL128 and Rez O Lewshun all came from Pinnacle....You guys are some big cheerleaders there in Memphis.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why the obsession with the red herrings of executive compensation and the like? For as much as has been blathered on, nothing has been brought forward to prove that a bunch of fragmented locals will represent pilots better (on the whole) than ALPA has.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Why the obsession with the red herrings of executive compensation and the like? For as much as has been blathered on, nothing has been brought forward to prove that a bunch of fragmented locals will represent pilots better (on the whole) than ALPA has.

exactly...all I have heard is problems being brought up with not ONE solution proposed. Nobody wants to answer you on how 40 something independent unions would perform vs. one union because they all know the answer.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Why the obsession with the red herrings of executive compensation and the like? For as much as has been blathered on, nothing has been brought forward to prove that a bunch of fragmented locals will represent pilots better (on the whole) than ALPA has.

Because it is important to trust your leadership if you going to follow them....The membership of ALPA doesn't trust the leadership plain and simple.....

A good leader doesn't sign agreements that cause the membership to take pay cuts of up to 33% while simultaneously changing there own compensation formula so as to not have to take the same cuts....

That isn't the sign of a good leader......

The fact that the ALPA cheerleaders are on here defending the ALPA compensation proves how out of touch they are.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

exactly...all I have heard is problems being brought up with not ONE solution proposed. Nobody wants to answer you on how 40 something independent unions would perform vs. one union because they all know the answer.

...actually the American pilots, UPS pilots, and SWA pilots are doing better than most ALPA pilots....

 

[SaturnPilot]

What do they mix with the ALPA koolaid over there at Pinnacle....SaturnPilot, PCL128 and Rez O Lewshun all came from Pinnacle....You guys are some big cheerleaders there in Memphis.....

Pinnacle...is that where ALPA just one the scope lawsuit vs. management on that issue that you deem so important. Want to take a guess on how that lawsuit would have gone down if PCL had it's own independent union? Well they wouldn't have been able to even afford one lawyer for it, so I guess not well. No, had PCL had an independent union, then it would currently be faced with a permant whipsaw situation with Colgan. Luckily ALPA actually puts more money into PCL than it gets back and gives us the resources to fight battles like this.

You can call me a cheerleader instead of answering my questions on what you propose to make things better. You say that you want to get rid of ALPA, so would we all be better off non-union, independent??? What is your solution?? Or are you just going to hand me a pom-pom and tell me I drink childrens beverages?

 

[Bringupthebird]

Because it is important to trust your leadership if you going to follow them....The membership of ALPA doesn't trust the leadership plain and simple.....

Great, then change the leadership, don't exchange government for anarchy just to show them who's boss.

 

[SaturnPilot]

...actually the American pilots, UPS pilots, and SWA pilots are doing better than most ALPA pilots....

lets see...you just named 3 pilot groups that did not go through a bankruptcy, one of which is in cargo and is not doing as well as it's fellow cargo ALPA carrier. Nevermind the fact that all 3 of those unions pay enormous amounts of money to ALPA for ALPA's services. Nevermind also that those pilot groups have benefited from the pattern bargaining of ALPA carriers.

What I asked is how 40 something independents will fare vs. 1 union...not how 3 independents fare vs. 1 union. When piloting issues come up in congress are they going to listen to the IPA, or are they going to listen to ALPA?

 

[steveg]

Once again:

The idiots at usapa have started all this crap about ALPA.

But the truth is IT IS NOT ABOUT ALPA. IT IS ONLY ABOUT SCREWING THE AWA PILOTS.

You guys argue all this crap and it is playing right into usapa's hands. usapa is simply trying to screw over another pilot group and hides it by wrapping it in all this anti-alpa stuff.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Because it is important to trust your leadership if you going to follow them....The membership of ALPA doesn't trust the leadership plain and simple.....

A good leader doesn't sign agreements that cause the membership to take pay cuts of up to 33% while simultaneously changing there own compensation formula so as to not have to take the same cuts....

That isn't the sign of a good leader......

The fact that the ALPA cheerleaders are on here defending the ALPA compensation proves how out of touch they are.....

I'm not defending ALPA compensation...I'm asking what you are doing to change it. It seems when your points are not getting accross, you default to calling me a cheerleader.

As Bringupthebird said, if you don't trust your leadership, why don't you just recall them? This is not a difficult concept. If I don't like the next President, I am simply not going to vote for him...I won't, as an alternative, form an Army to overthrow the gov't and "start over"

 

[JoeMerchant]

Pinnacle...is that where ALPA just one the scope lawsuit vs. management on that issue that you deem so important. Want to take a guess on how that lawsuit would have gone down if PCL had it's own independent union? Well they wouldn't have been able to even afford one lawyer for it, so I guess not well. No, had PCL had an independent union, then it would currently be faced with a permant whipsaw situation with Colgan. Luckily ALPA actually puts more money into PCL than it gets back and gives us the resources to fight battles like this.

Interesting that you bring up this issue....

The ASA and CMR MECs filed a similar grievance in 2000 after Delta purchased ASA and CMR.....ALPA refused to even pursue the grievance......

 

[PCL_128]

It's nice having SaturnPilot around. Now there's someone else to answer all of Joe's inane posts. Takes some pressure off of me and Rez.