End ALPA - Begin War

[SaturnPilot]

Shall we go into how the formula was changed at the 2002 BOD.....so that DW didn't have to take a paycut after 911......

DW did take a paycut after 911...just not as much as he would have under the older formula. If you want to go back to the old formula, why not just make that a priority for your reps at this years BOD? Need we get rid of ALPA because of this?

 

[JoeMerchant]

DW did take a paycut after 911...just not as much as he would have under the older formula. If you want to go back to the old formula, why not just make that a priority for your reps at this years BOD? Need we get rid of ALPA because of this?

Keep it up Saturn....you are helping to make the point for those of us who are fed up with ALPA....The BOD is a highly political body....much like the US Congress....Deals are cut to protect people....That doesn't mean the "little people" who actually pay the bills agree with them....

It was highly unethical to change the formula so that DW didn't have to feel the pain that so many of the members felt after 911....

The Herndon elite lost touch a long time ago....

Keep it up.....it helps to undermine ALPA.....

 

[PCL_128]

No, ALPA lacks credibility. And the below is rock solid concerning credibility.

Well, lucky, as someone who is so pissed off about ALPA's change in the age 60 policy, maybe you should know a little bit about Herb Holland's history (the author of the email that Joe posted). Herb actually filed a lawsuit trying to get rid of the Age 60 rule. The lawsuit failed, of course, but it was an obsession of his. His disdain for ALPA was rooted in this maniacal obsession. He didn't just want to increase the age to 65, he wanted no limits whatsoever. He was even willing to have new health evaluation requirements imposed on pilots of all ages just so he could get the age limit changed. He always talked of how he could pass any health exam, so screw the guys who couldn't. He was emblematic of the "I've got mine, screw everyone else" philosophy. Thank God he hit 60 about a month before the rule changed.

So, you can get an idea of where Herb's true vendetta comes from. He despised ALPA's stance on the Age 60 rule under Captain Woerth, and it was his obsession. As for his implying that there was some sort of grand conspiracy to unseat him from office, he's playing loose with the facts. His own pilot group was crying out for his recall. Nobody at National was out to get him. He got removed because his own pilots didn't trust him.

In short, he has zero credibility and a bunch of ulterior motives.

 

[SaturnPilot]

Keep it up Saturn....you are helping to make the point for those of us who are fed up with ALPA....The BOD is a highly political body....much like the US Congress....Deals are cut to protect people....That doesn't mean the "little people" who actually pay the bills agree with them....

It was highly unethical to change the formula so that DW didn't have to feel the pain that so many of the members felt after 911....

The Herndon elite lost touch a long time ago....

Keep it up.....it helps to undermine ALPA.....

Joe, you've pointed out that you don't like what happened with the compensation of the president in the 02 BOD...and that is fine. I'm asking what you are proposing to do now. Are you going to push to change the formula back to the avg of the 5?

I slightly disagree with you about the makeup of the BOD. While there are a lot of politics that go on at that level, there is also a large sum of reps that don't play into the political game and vote their concience. You can get involved and vote your concience on issues like these, or you can sit on the sidelines and complain when others vote on them.

Why do you want to undermine ALPA? What is your alternative to ALPA that will have the same power and resources?

 

[PCL_128]

Saturn, you're asking Joe to look to the future rather than obsessing on the past. That's simply not Joe's way. All he can do is b!tch and whine about what happened years ago. He has no ideas and no solutions. Just complaints, most of which have no basis in reality.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, lucky, as someone who is so pissed off about ALPA's change in the age 60 policy, maybe you should know a little bit about Herb Holland's history (the author of the email that Joe posted). Herb actually filed a lawsuit trying to get rid of the Age 60 rule. The lawsuit failed, of course, but it was an obsession of his. His disdain for ALPA was rooted in this maniacal obsession. He didn't just want to increase the age to 65, he wanted no limits whatsoever. He was even willing to have new health evaluation requirements imposed on pilots of all ages just so he could get the age limit changed. He always talked of how he could pass any health exam, so screw the guys who couldn't. He was emblematic of the "I've got mine, screw everyone else" philosophy. Thank God he hit 60 about a month before the rule changed.

So, you can get an idea of where Herb's true vendetta comes from. He despised ALPA's stance on the Age 60 rule under Captain Woerth, and it was his obsession. As for his implying that there was some sort of grand conspiracy to unseat him from office, he's playing loose with the facts. His own pilot group was crying out for his recall. Nobody at National was out to get him. He got removed because his own pilots didn't trust him.

In short, he has zero credibility and a bunch of ulterior motives.

Would you like to address any of the issues raised regarding the compensation....Age 60 has been changed and ALPA helped it to change....That isn't the issue that was brought up....you are trying to deflect the issue....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, you've pointed out that you don't like what happened with the compensation of the president in the 02 BOD...and that is fine. I'm asking what you are proposing to do now. Are you going to push to change the formula back to the avg of the 5?

I slightly disagree with you about the makeup of the BOD. While there are a lot of politics that go on at that level, there is also a large sum of reps that don't play into the political game and vote their concience. You can get involved and vote your concience on issues like these, or you can sit on the sidelines and complain when others vote on them.

Why do you want to undermine ALPA? What is your alternative to ALPA that will have the same power and resources?

1. Actually it was the avg. of the highest 6 carriers prior to 2002.....Then it was changed to the avg. of the highest 3.....

2. At that same BOD.....the regional MECs of ASA, CMR, and EGL brought several resolutions to the floor to deal with the predatory scope issue in ALPA....in the end they were all watered down to the point of being useless....Yes some may not play the political "game".....but it isn't enough....

3. I think ALPA's very existance must be threatened before any meaningful reform happens....even then it may not happen....In that case it is time to start over......

 

[SaturnPilot]

Would you like to address any of the issues raised regarding the compensation.

I'm trying to address that issue now...are we all going to call our status reps and make this a big issue in the next BOD, or are we going to sit on the sidelines and note every single fault that we see and then give up like Capt. Rep Richard?

 

[PCL_128]

Would you like to address any of the issues raised regarding the compensation....Age 60 has been changed and ALPA helped it to change....That isn't the issue that was brought up....you are trying to deflect the issue....

I'm not deflecting the issue at all. Knowing the man's character and history gives everyone a window into his motives and his credibility. Nothing the man says is credible, so the entire email is useless. He has a vendetta against the Association, and that clouds his entire credibility. Period.

As for Officer compensation, you and I have discussed that issue ad nauseum. No need to go into it again.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm trying to address that issue now...are we all going to call our status reps and make this a big issue in the next BOD, or are we going to sit on the sidelines and note every single fault that we see and then give up like Capt. Rep Richard?

....you go right ahead and try to work within the system....good luck....the rest of us will continue to attack from the outside.....

If ALPA leaders had any integrity they wouldn't have done this in the first place.....It shouldn't have to be "fixed" from the membership thru our status reps....

ALPA leaders are like Congressmen....they want to hold onto their power and their pay....

 

[SaturnPilot]

1. Actually it was the avg. of the highest 6 carriers prior to 2002.....Then it was changed to the avg. of the highest 3.....

2. At that same BOD.....the regional MECs of ASA, CMR, and EGL brought several resolutions to the floor to deal with the predatory scope issue in ALPA....in the end they were all watered down to the point of being useless....Yes some may not play the political "game".....but it isn't enough....

3. I think ALPA's very existance must be threatened before any meaningful reform happens....even then it may not happen....In that case it is time to start over......

1. sorry...6

2. sounds like the resolutions didn't convince enough via the democratic process. Were they proposing brand scope or something?

3. since the BOD has the ultimate power to reform, and the BOD is made up of simple line pilots like you and me, I don't see how threatening ALPA's existence is necessary to jar the line pilot rep into action. What reform is it you propose?

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA leaders are like Congressmen....they want to hold onto their power and their pay....

Yeah, I know I was making a fortune and getting all kinds of time off......oh wait, no I wasn't! I wasn't getting anymore money and I had absolutely no time off. As usual, Joe is out in left field.

 

[SaturnPilot]

....you go right ahead and try to work within the system....good luck....the rest of us will continue to attack from the outside.....

If ALPA leaders had any integrity they wouldn't have done this in the first place.....It shouldn't have to be "fixed" from the membership thru our status reps....

ALPA leaders are like Congressmen....they want to hold onto their power and their pay....

I have tried to work the system from the inside and I've gotten some meaningful things accomplished. Why don't you and the others who are attacking from the outside join me and then we can have even more votes to accomplish more change?

I don't see why the members of the BOD want to hold onto their pay...it is a volunteer position...no extra pay.

 

[SaturnPilot]

If ALPA leaders had any integrity they wouldn't have done this in the first place.....It shouldn't have to be "fixed" from the membership thru our status reps....

I almost forgot...if I don't call my status rep to let him know this issue is important to me, how is he going to know what I (the membership) want??? Telepathy?? Magic??

Saying things "shouldn't" have to be done does not confront the reality that things still have to get done. I shouldn't have to instruct a 121 First Officer that at or above 18,000 it is pronouced "FL180", but the reality is that if I didn't do this the other day, I would have been flying around for 4 days with somebody checking in at "25 thousand climbing to 30 thousand"

 

[JoeMerchant]

I have tried to work the system from the inside and I've gotten some meaningful things accomplished. Why don't you and the others who are attacking from the outside join me and then we can have even more votes to accomplish more change?

I don't see why the members of the BOD want to hold onto their pay...it is a volunteer position...no extra pay.

The pay I'm referring to is the ALPA national officers....many BOD members like the political game and hope to move up the foodchain.....Many of them also like the ALPA leave and use it very liberally....

Many of us have tried working on the inside and it went nowhere.....Some of the ASA and CMR pilots who were involved in the RJDC lawsuit first worked with ALPA back in 1995 during the first scope committee....Here we are 13 years later and the scope problem is worse than it was back in 1995.....How did that happen?

I've given up on ALPA and so have many other's....you and Rez. need to go back to Herndon and try there....you won't convince us.....