Emergency Decent

[Flyingdutchman]

Emergency Descent

I was having a discussion with a few guys.

Would you during a em. descent (lets say from FL370 to 10.000 feet like that Helios 737 in Greece)

A) Have the A/P fly ?

or,

B) Fly manual ?

Why A or B ? and what does your company say?

FD

 

[atrdriver]

Personally I would rather let the AP fly. If I'm doing an emer descent there is a reason for it, and I'm going to be trying to take care of the other things that are going wrong. Company also says let the AP fly if it's available.

 

[Butters]

I was having a discussion with a few friends..

Would you during a emerg. dec. (lets say from FL370 to 10.000 feet like that Helios 737 in Greece)

A) Have the A/P fly

or,

B) Fly manual ?

Why A or B ? and what does your company say?

FD

I choose B. Too critical of a time to let the AP fly. I would want to have the control at that point. Company doesn't dictate either way where I work.

While we are on the subject, if the reports of freezing temps are true, does anyone know why they didn't try to get down earlier?

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Ok boys.

This is a good and interesting discussion. I would fly manual, unless it's IMC.

What does your company manual say about this? Manual or A/P?

FD

 

[J32driver]

With the A/P on, set 10,000, select IAS mode, power to idle, boards out. Nothing else to do other than deal with the problem. I'd let the autopilot do the work.

 

[Butters]

With the A/P on, set 10,000, select IAS mode, power to idle, boards out. Nothing else to do other than deal with the problem. I'd let the autopilot do the work.

Just be careful someone is still watching the autopilot. Nothing like making a bad situation worse.

 

[Flying_Corporal]

Ok boys.

This is a good and interesting discussion. I would fly manual, unless it's IMC.

What does your company manual say about this? Manual or A/P?

FD

Manual. I believe some autopilots' max rate of descent is 3000 fpm, which is probably not enough when you need to get down from to 10K quickly.

 

[LegacyDriver]

If you have oxygen on and can breathe then there isn't a whole lot out there that requires an incredible descent rate. If you can't get down in time at 3,000-4,000 fpm you are probably dead any way. That's my thinking.


Ditto the above: Masks, Idle, Boards, Gear (if it's that bad), 10,000 Feet/MSA, IAS mode, Checklists. Let the A/P take the workload from you--there are bigger fish to fry at this point.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Suit up and communicate and let the AP fly it down. Thats company policy and I agree with it. A high workload time and no pilot, especially on which may be impaired has any business hand flying if he can help it.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Is that in the Dash? isn't your max. service ceiling FL 250 anyway?

Keep 'm comming.

(Are you Den based?? getting junior sp*nked a lot last few days?? )

 

[PositiveRate]

AP on, Idle, boards out, Vmo or Mmo if no damage. With the masks on and 1 person handflying, it's very easy to stop working effectively together and task saturation for both people would be more likely (IMO).

Obviously, no two emergencies are created equal and I'm sure there are situations where the AP is either unavailable or maybe just not immediate enough for the need. Even in the later case, though, if it was avail and once the descent was established, I would prob turn it back on.

It seems the life and death line is drawn more by getting the mask on fast enough than it is by the time it takes to get to 10k or thereabouts.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Is that in the Dash? isn't your max. service ceiling FL 250 anyway?

Keep 'm comming.

(Are you Den based?? getting junior sp*nked a lot last few days?? )

The Dash it is, Just not in DEN. The e-descent thing is more if I'm on fire and need to hit a runway directly below me. Which the dash can do, in grand style.

 

[FreedomAList]

Easy. Autopilot on. When it's crunch time, you want to do everything you can to reduce the workload. Crew resource management means using every resource at your disposal, and the autopilot is a very powerful tool.

Remember, you're a systems manager, not Chuck Yeager. Save the heroics when for when you take your sweetie-pie up in the 172 for a spin recovery demonstration. You already proved you knew how to fly back in your last PC check.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Auto pilot all the way. What happens if you're hand flying and then you both pass out? If the A/P is on and 10,000 is commanded, then at least the aircraft will level out at a breathable altitude and you can wake up before you run out of fuel.

 

[flyer172r]

Auto pilot all the way. What happens if you're hand flying and then you both pass out? If the A/P is on and 10,000 is commanded, then at least the aircraft will level out at a breathable altitude and you can wake up before you run out of fuel.

The only problem I see with that scenario is what happens when the AP levels the plane at 10,000, and nobody is awake to advance the thrust levers?

Sadly, I think the recent crash in Greece and the Payne Stewart accident a few years ago would seem to indicate that we are more susceptible to a loss of pressurization and ensuing unconsciousness than we'd care to admit. Has anyone out there experienced a real emergency descent and lived to tell about it? Please share what happened and what you did, it would probably benefit us all.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I think a G-String of some sort has an auto-descent profile for cabin pressure loss. That's cool stuff.

 

[bigboy]

With the A/P on, set 10,000, select IAS mode, power to idle, boards out. Nothing else to do other than deal with the problem. I'd let the autopilot do the work.

I agree. Let the AP do the job for you.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Ok.. About 60/40 so far..


FD

 

[DirkkDiggler]

The only problem I see with that scenario is what happens when the AP levels the plane at 10,000, and nobody is awake to advance the thrust levers?

I agree. That would be a problem, but you can only hope to have regained consciousness by the time you level off. I'd rather take my chances doing this rather than pass out without the autopilot on while performing a high speed descent with the boards out! I think at that point you'd have a lot more to worry about than the thrust being at idle when you leveled at 10,000!

Not to mention you'll be putting on your O2 mask and declaring an emergency at some point. Who's flying while you put your masks on?

 

[ArcticFlier]

A/p..............without question.


AF

 

[Spinplate]

I say get the mask on first and make sure you have good O2 flow first, then establish comm with F/O or Capt. for Emergency Descent Procedures. Fly the plane first even if its on AP, but I would prefer to be in manual emergency descent if my O2 was good, why not. Pilot has more control over airplane manually than in AP mode. Loss of cabin press. that drastic is going to be caused by some sort of structural failure somewhere in the plane so in manual mode you would have better control and would be able to make faster pitch/roll changes than AP if it were serious, but its totally situational on what the cause is. Last but not least get ATC to let you know if 10k will even be a good altitude (IMC over Colorado and splat). They'll tell you in a sec the lowest you could go in any direction. Like I said, depends on situation......need to know more on conditions inside and outside of plane.

 

[CJdude]

I agree with J32 Driver.
However refer to the checklist of the aircraft you fly under the you know RED PRINT that's why it's there.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Pilot has more control over airplane manually than in AP mode. Loss of cabin press. that drastic is going to be caused by some sort of structural failure somewhere in the plane so in manual mode you would have better control and would be able to make faster pitch/roll changes than AP if it were serious, but its totally situational on what the cause is. Last but not least get ATC to let you know if 10k will even be a good altitude (IMC over Colorado and splat). They'll tell you in a sec the lowest you could go in any direction. Like I said, depends on situation......need to know more on conditions inside and outside of plane.

If I had structural problems as the reason for the depressurization, the last thing I want to do is start yanking and banking. The A/P is going to do a fine job of holding your current speed (if you have structural issues, the last thing you want to do is run 'er up to Vmo/Mmo) or accelerating if you desire/need to.

Just for giggles, here's the Emergency Descent flow (for the CRJ)as I remember it (it's late and I'm way too tired):

O2 masks don
Establish communications
Hot mic on
Speaker on
Mask/Boom mic Mask
"Captain on O2"
"First Officer on O2"
Captain Flow:
Seat belt sign on
FCP:
Set lower altitude
push speed knob
engage speed mode
Thrust levers idle
Flight spoilers deployed
Synoptic page: doors (looking for potential structural damage)
Set airspeed to Vmo/Mmo if no obvious structural damage
PA announcement to passengers.

First Officer Flow:
ATC:
Declare emergency
Verify airspace below is clear
Inquire about the MEA
7700
Reset altitude to 10,000 or MEA whichever is higher
PAX O2 on as commanded by Captain

AT 10,000 or MEA
Flight spoilers retract
Set airspeed to 250
O2 masks off
Captain transfers control to First Officer
Captain calls Flight Attendant to assess damage.

Y'all may want to nit-pick this or that, but this is basically the way our Flight Ops wants it done. Feel free. I won't bother responding. This is my point though....... who in the hell wants to be hand-flying at the same time?


AF

 

[Flyingdutchman]

I say get the mask on first and make sure you have good O2 flow first, then establish comm with F/O or Capt. for Emergency Descent Procedures. Fly the plane first even if its on AP, but I would prefer to be in manual emergency descent if my O2 was good, why not. Pilot has more control over airplane manually than in AP mode. Loss of cabin press. that drastic is going to be caused by some sort of structural failure somewhere in the plane so in manual mode you would have better control and would be able to make faster pitch/roll changes than AP if it were serious, but its totally situational on what the cause is. Last but not least get ATC to let you know if 10k will even be a good altitude (IMC over Colorado and splat). They'll tell you in a sec the lowest you could go in any direction. Like I said, depends on situation......need to know more on conditions inside and outside of plane.

Agree. Been based in Colorado for 2+ years.. sometimes, over some areas, 12.000' is still below your MOCA/MSA

 

[Spinplate]

I wasnt talking about yanking and banking. Im talking about the ability react faster in manual mode than pushing buttons to try and get a desired pitch/speed setting from your FD/AP. Regardless someone needs to be monitoring the AP, so why not be flying it to get a faster rate of descent going vs. trying to punch buttons. If one pilot only, I agree that the AP should be used. Only if 2 pilots are capable of flying should it be done and if so, each one understanding what the other is doing to get it accomplished faster and without error. If 3k a minute is limit on an A/P, you will have some freezing a$$ unconscious people in the back. I say get down faster within reason and limits of airplane depending upon what the actual depressurization problem is if even known. good night all, To Be Continued................................

 

[ArcticFlier]

I wasnt talking about yanking and banking. Im talking about the ability react faster in manual mode than pushing buttons to try and get a desired pitch/speed setting from your FD/AP.

Once you start down like the manhole cover you just turned the airplane into, how much faster do you really need to react to start the whole process?

AF

BTW, 3000 fpm isn't a limit on any A/P I've flown. I'm not saying that some out there don't have that limitation, but I don't think they are installed in anything that encompasses what we are talking about here.

 

[SouthTex]

C'mon people, like we have all been there and "this how I dealt with it crap." Let's quit BS'n and realize that...crap what's the point on this board, you can study but unless it envolves ALPA or how you were shafted by management-what does it matter? See you at the bar.

 

[satpak77]

Flightsafety teaches IAS hold on AP in the B-350, once you manually have nosed down and established the emergency descent speed and emergency descent checklist is done or almost done. AP the rest of the way down.

Also "use your judgement" is taught. A decompression at 15,000 is less of an "oh sh1t lets get down now" than one (obviously) at FL 330

 

[mdanno808]

A/P engaged at my company. Let the airplane do it's thing while the pilots run the checklists, notify atc, watch for traffic, etc.

 

[jobear]

A/P

Jobear