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EMB Guy's "Chip"
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wnt2fly4swa
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
- Posts
- 32
farewell for a while
Not scared a bit but I am going to be gone for a few months and I didn't want to leave posts just hanging. I think this thread is pretty well done anyway.
Wish me well with transition training and a new house. Don't think I'll have time to mess with with this stuff during training.
thebigj10 said:
Not scared a bit but I am going to be gone for a few months and I didn't want to leave posts just hanging. I think this thread is pretty well done anyway.
Wish me well with transition training and a new house. Don't think I'll have time to mess with with this stuff during training.
KingAirGuy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 52
Country Wild said:
Well, I've been out for a year now and think I can speak with a little authority on this subject.
Military pilots have never starved. Well depends on what additional schools you are priviledged to attend as an aviator (can you spell SERE). Not only starved but you have the oppertunity to learn all kinds of mind numbing things (when was the last time you were pushed into a scum filled pond hands bound in the late fall?)
I think your selling Military pilots short. Its much more than a 9 to 5 job. I'm a civi now and there are different pressures, not more or less difficult, just different. You remarked about going below MDA or you might lost your job, how about If I fly today I might lose my life? I won't say which one is more stressful, to the well trained aviator you deal with the stress of the mission and relax and unwind on the ground. As a Civilian that might be to go back to your apartment and watch the tube. To a military pilot it may be back to the plywood shack erected to house you at the end of a runway in BFE. Cold and cold running water and a spades game just waiting to happen.
I hold no ill will towards guys who worked their way up, hell our chief pilot started out mowing lawns at the FBO. My point? No one had it handed to them on a silver platter, in our own ways we all had to work and earn what we have. You may think being in the military is all drinks at the O club and parades, however its nothing like that at all.
usna,
Sorry, I was out of the loop for a while, and I guess I missed EMB's posts, since it looks like he pulled them off. I was wondering if you would fill me in on what he wrote. I was wondering if he was taking a dig at military guys experience levels.
I just wanted to see if he thought that flying a 770,000 pound airplane that has been maintained by 18 year olds, so nothing really works on it, was marginal experinece. Not to mention taking that airplane, with a crew of up to 15 people (whose well being I, not the company, was responsible for) into some of the worst rat-hole airports in the world (places that use QFE alitmeter settings and give altitudes in meters, with equipment on the airplane that requires about 4 iterations to get an accurate alitmeter setting that would keep you from hitting a mountain) while flying an NDB approach (off the actual NDB, and not on some GPS aided FMS system) in the weather at night wasn't "acceptible" experience. Oh, by the way, also add on the fact that I was the planner and dispatcher, as well as the PIC (no "shared responsibility" here) I did the fuel plan, flight plan, weather analysis, and everything else that, now that I am a civillian pilot, gets handed to me without a second thought. I guess the fact that in addition to flying into some podunk fields, I've also gone into ariports in places like Frankfurt, Honolulu, Amsterdam and Stockholm (some of the busiest airports in the WORLD) with an airplane ( for country wild's sake ) that was barely legal to fly, beause half of its generators or hydraulic pumps were not working, also makes my experince inferior.
While I'm on Country's post, he is right, I never had to go below mins for fear of losing my job, but when you have an airplane full of the President's limos and you have to get them into some field in Moscow where weather is dog s**t, because if you don't, he can't get in to complete some summit meeting, there is a bit of pressure there, too.
I guess EMB is right, I don't see how my experience in the military could prepare me to fly an airplane (on which the worst maintenance write-up I've seen so far was that the coffe maker was broken) from New York to Florida , in radar contact the whole time, talking to American ATC (most of whom speak english), on autopilot 95% of the time with an ACARS that gives me clearance, weather and any company messages at the touch of a button, to an approach that I've done so many times I could brief it from memory.
Sorry about the rant, I just don't like it when people mock what they have not experienced (even if their daddy did). I don't take digs at civillian-only pilots because I never had to go through what they did to get to where they are. Like someone posted earlier, we all had to go through a whole bunch of crap to get to the place we are now. Let's just leave it at that.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.......
Sorry, I was out of the loop for a while, and I guess I missed EMB's posts, since it looks like he pulled them off. I was wondering if you would fill me in on what he wrote. I was wondering if he was taking a dig at military guys experience levels.
I just wanted to see if he thought that flying a 770,000 pound airplane that has been maintained by 18 year olds, so nothing really works on it, was marginal experinece. Not to mention taking that airplane, with a crew of up to 15 people (whose well being I, not the company, was responsible for) into some of the worst rat-hole airports in the world (places that use QFE alitmeter settings and give altitudes in meters, with equipment on the airplane that requires about 4 iterations to get an accurate alitmeter setting that would keep you from hitting a mountain) while flying an NDB approach (off the actual NDB, and not on some GPS aided FMS system) in the weather at night wasn't "acceptible" experience. Oh, by the way, also add on the fact that I was the planner and dispatcher, as well as the PIC (no "shared responsibility" here) I did the fuel plan, flight plan, weather analysis, and everything else that, now that I am a civillian pilot, gets handed to me without a second thought. I guess the fact that in addition to flying into some podunk fields, I've also gone into ariports in places like Frankfurt, Honolulu, Amsterdam and Stockholm (some of the busiest airports in the WORLD) with an airplane ( for country wild's sake ) that was barely legal to fly, beause half of its generators or hydraulic pumps were not working, also makes my experince inferior.
While I'm on Country's post, he is right, I never had to go below mins for fear of losing my job, but when you have an airplane full of the President's limos and you have to get them into some field in Moscow where weather is dog s**t, because if you don't, he can't get in to complete some summit meeting, there is a bit of pressure there, too.
I guess EMB is right, I don't see how my experience in the military could prepare me to fly an airplane (on which the worst maintenance write-up I've seen so far was that the coffe maker was broken) from New York to Florida , in radar contact the whole time, talking to American ATC (most of whom speak english), on autopilot 95% of the time with an ACARS that gives me clearance, weather and any company messages at the touch of a button, to an approach that I've done so many times I could brief it from memory.
Sorry about the rant, I just don't like it when people mock what they have not experienced (even if their daddy did). I don't take digs at civillian-only pilots because I never had to go through what they did to get to where they are. Like someone posted earlier, we all had to go through a whole bunch of crap to get to the place we are now. Let's just leave it at that.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.......
Country Wild
Retiring Soon
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 78
I thank everyone for their responses to these past view post. I have been flying for the airlines since 1970 and I have flown with many pilots from many different backgrounds. Each brings something different to the table and each is better at different things. I am not going to go into a long list, but I hold military trained pilots in high regards, as well as civilian trained pilots. I do apologize for the post that have appeared here in Flight Info. It seems that I didn't completely log off before I left home a couple of days ago. I do apologize to everyone.
OakRBust
Still Lucky as Hell
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2002
- Posts
- 259
Oh yeah well my dad can beat up your dad!
I can't believe how many people get tired fingers over stupid flame baiters.
I went civie and it worked for me. But, I sure am glad that many of you went Millitary! (Go USA!!!) Both ways work.
Now please take this horse out back and shoot him 10 times in the head and then roll his @ss over with a steam roller. While you are at it please do the same to the LCC vs Majors horse too!!
Everybody have a Great Holiday!!!
OAK
I can't believe how many people get tired fingers over stupid flame baiters.
I went civie and it worked for me. But, I sure am glad that many of you went Millitary! (Go USA!!!) Both ways work.
Now please take this horse out back and shoot him 10 times in the head and then roll his @ss over with a steam roller. While you are at it please do the same to the LCC vs Majors horse too!!
Everybody have a Great Holiday!!!
OAK
xanderman
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2002
- Posts
- 508
just another reply...
Ya know it really comes down to who you know! I think most of us (including military pilots) get jobs because of the right connections. I am a 3000hr ATP typed in the EMB-145, do I think I deserve a job? No. But would I like a job with a major? Yeah, sure! Who doesn't? My point is this... Sometimes it appears that some groups of pilots have it easier. They don't. In reallity they sacrifice too but in different ways. Remember most military guys/gals have a long line of SQDN or shipmates to help get their foot in the door. Civilian guys/gals have that too...if you network. I have flown with military guys who were great and not so great. They probably thought the same of me! Life is not fair. So let's stop with the look what I had to do to get there crap. We all sacrificed.
Xanderman
P.S. I rag on all equally if they think their sh!t doesn't stink
Ya know it really comes down to who you know! I think most of us (including military pilots) get jobs because of the right connections. I am a 3000hr ATP typed in the EMB-145, do I think I deserve a job? No. But would I like a job with a major? Yeah, sure! Who doesn't? My point is this... Sometimes it appears that some groups of pilots have it easier. They don't. In reallity they sacrifice too but in different ways. Remember most military guys/gals have a long line of SQDN or shipmates to help get their foot in the door. Civilian guys/gals have that too...if you network. I have flown with military guys who were great and not so great. They probably thought the same of me! Life is not fair. So let's stop with the look what I had to do to get there crap. We all sacrificed.
Xanderman
P.S. I rag on all equally if they think their sh!t doesn't stink
Fredflyer,
What you are describing, sounds like a normal day at Atlas, Fine Arrow, Evergreen or any other global (roach) freight carrier (minus the flight planning). Don't understand what the big deal is since you get used to it after a while, but I'm sure you impressed couple domestic RJ drivers with all your bull$hit.
And of the "busiest" airports you listed FRA came in at 17th, and AMS at 21st on the "top 30 busiest airports in world list" (ACI Traffic Data: World airports ranking by total aircraft movement- 2001) At all those places they stick you on 15 mile final for an ILS, all you have to do is sit back and enjoy the ride, which you can't say for many airports in the US.
What you are describing, sounds like a normal day at Atlas, Fine Arrow, Evergreen or any other global (roach) freight carrier (minus the flight planning). Don't understand what the big deal is since you get used to it after a while, but I'm sure you impressed couple domestic RJ drivers with all your bull$hit.
And of the "busiest" airports you listed FRA came in at 17th, and AMS at 21st on the "top 30 busiest airports in world list" (ACI Traffic Data: World airports ranking by total aircraft movement- 2001) At all those places they stick you on 15 mile final for an ILS, all you have to do is sit back and enjoy the ride, which you can't say for many airports in the US.
dieterly,
My point exactly, the dig on military pilots was that we didn't have the SAME experience, I just wanted to say (and as you pointed out above) that that was not necessarily the case.
Sorry about the mis-information about how busy the airports were, I didn't have the ACI traffic data on hand when I was ranting and raving.
I hope I impressed somebody with all that stuff, it was a lot of typing to do
My point exactly, the dig on military pilots was that we didn't have the SAME experience, I just wanted to say (and as you pointed out above) that that was not necessarily the case.
Sorry about the mis-information about how busy the airports were, I didn't have the ACI traffic data on hand when I was ranting and raving.
I hope I impressed somebody with all that stuff, it was a lot of typing to do
Last edited:
Here's some flame bait -
Are the Air Farce, Squids, and Army pukes really considered to be "in the military" I remember my Drill Instuctors at PI (Parris Island for you slimey civilians) tell us there are 2 types of people in the world Marines and those who wish they could be Marines.
From a Desert Shield/Storm Jarhead groundpounder - best of luck to all you non Marine hackers in this next go around - just remember when you get your butt in a bind just call us Marines and we'll bail you guys out AGAIN!!! heh, heh, heh
FLAME AWAY 9 go ahead and drop the nape!)
Are the Air Farce, Squids, and Army pukes really considered to be "in the military" I remember my Drill Instuctors at PI (Parris Island for you slimey civilians) tell us there are 2 types of people in the world Marines and those who wish they could be Marines.
From a Desert Shield/Storm Jarhead groundpounder - best of luck to all you non Marine hackers in this next go around - just remember when you get your butt in a bind just call us Marines and we'll bail you guys out AGAIN!!! heh, heh, heh
FLAME AWAY 9 go ahead and drop the nape!)
RightBettor
Betting "Don't" these day
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 308
Military v. Civilian...
Okay gang... here's the deal. Some military pilots are total boneheads; however, most military pilots are great people who are a joy to fly with. Some civilian pilots are total boneheads; however, most civilian pilots are great people who are a joy to fly with. That being said, everyone needs to realize that this argument has been going on for a loooong time and will likely continue. Each background has its own set of challenges and difficulties.
Surviving is the common thread. Military guys have to survive: long deployments away from the family, potential of getting shot down (a biggie), long duty days. Civilian guys have to survive: years of low pay... eating rice and beans, working for unscrupulous operators who will tarnish your PRIA record at the drop of a hat and/or get you killed (a biggie), long duty days (ooohhh... did we find another common thread?)
This is what everyone needs to realize: What you did before you arrived at (fill in airline name here) is nice for conversation. Beyond that, once you arrive at (fill in airline name here) the only thing that REALLY matters is what YOU can do to contribute the success of said airline. History is great for the bar, but once everyone gets to where they are going, they are all in the same position on the airline totem pole.
Airlines generally hire people because ther are TRAINABLE. I would submit to the readers here that 99% of the military AND civilian pilots out there are trainable. That's probably why they got hired. Granted there are other factors such as networking, squadron buds, or the interview captain who was also in such-and-such organization/squadron... you can argue those points until you are blue in the face, but they don't change the fact that, once you are hired, what really matters is what you can do to make your company successful.
Aside from that little tirade, civilian pilots are still better looking!!
Okay gang... here's the deal. Some military pilots are total boneheads; however, most military pilots are great people who are a joy to fly with. Some civilian pilots are total boneheads; however, most civilian pilots are great people who are a joy to fly with. That being said, everyone needs to realize that this argument has been going on for a loooong time and will likely continue. Each background has its own set of challenges and difficulties.
Surviving is the common thread. Military guys have to survive: long deployments away from the family, potential of getting shot down (a biggie), long duty days. Civilian guys have to survive: years of low pay... eating rice and beans, working for unscrupulous operators who will tarnish your PRIA record at the drop of a hat and/or get you killed (a biggie), long duty days (ooohhh... did we find another common thread?)
This is what everyone needs to realize: What you did before you arrived at (fill in airline name here) is nice for conversation. Beyond that, once you arrive at (fill in airline name here) the only thing that REALLY matters is what YOU can do to contribute the success of said airline. History is great for the bar, but once everyone gets to where they are going, they are all in the same position on the airline totem pole.
Airlines generally hire people because ther are TRAINABLE. I would submit to the readers here that 99% of the military AND civilian pilots out there are trainable. That's probably why they got hired. Granted there are other factors such as networking, squadron buds, or the interview captain who was also in such-and-such organization/squadron... you can argue those points until you are blue in the face, but they don't change the fact that, once you are hired, what really matters is what you can do to make your company successful.
Aside from that little tirade, civilian pilots are still better looking!!
right bettor
The point wasn't to get into an argument about civilian versus military. Suffice it to say it's apples and oranges. The thread started because one person (whose background doesn't matter) made a gross generalization about military pilots that isn't true. To make matters worse, that same person (who has negative preconceived notions about mil pilots) participates in the hiring process at his/her airline.
That should bother everyone who reads this.
The point wasn't to get into an argument about civilian versus military. Suffice it to say it's apples and oranges. The thread started because one person (whose background doesn't matter) made a gross generalization about military pilots that isn't true. To make matters worse, that same person (who has negative preconceived notions about mil pilots) participates in the hiring process at his/her airline.
That should bother everyone who reads this.
exagony,
I think marine pilots are also great guys, I've flown with a bunch of them. You just have to make sure you.....talk.....really.....slow......and.....use......small.......words.
rightbettor,
Civ guys are better looking, that's why mil guys get flight suits, it evens things out. Just out of curiosity (from your name) do you play craps?
I think marine pilots are also great guys, I've flown with a bunch of them. You just have to make sure you.....talk.....really.....slow......and.....use......small.......words.
rightbettor,
Civ guys are better looking, that's why mil guys get flight suits, it evens things out. Just out of curiosity (from your name) do you play craps?
RightBettor
Betting "Don't" these day
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 308
Okey dokey
usna91,
I understand your position. Point well taken. My "rant" was for the numerous other guys who argue (on this thread and in the past) this ridiculous point of mil v. civ. and who is better. So no hard feelings, okay?
fredflyer,
Yes I like craps, but I do not play with money that I cannot afford to loose. As of late, I haven't been playing craps much.
usna91,
I understand your position. Point well taken. My "rant" was for the numerous other guys who argue (on this thread and in the past) this ridiculous point of mil v. civ. and who is better. So no hard feelings, okay?
fredflyer,
Yes I like craps, but I do not play with money that I cannot afford to loose. As of late, I haven't been playing craps much.
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