EMB 170/190 will make EMBRAER # 3

[DenverDude2002]

Hmm Cool. Anyone know if any of the 170s will be coming to KDEN or anywhere within 300 nm of KROA?

 

[GoFaster]

This is an interesting thread. I read a report by the Boyd Group about the E170/190 series aircraft that was very interesting. It mostly pertained to American Airlines, but did give some insight into regional operations. I hate to try to paraphrase what the Boyd Group said but with no other choice I will give it a shot.

-this is the new aircraft to fill the void between CRJ70 and MD80
-big question is who will fly them mainline v. regional pilots
-current RJ are going to fall out of favor due to high ASM cost
-major airlines are going to spin off wholly owned regionals, if they can
-now is the time to spin off the regionals, as they are probably worth as much as they will ever be worth.
-regionals will become more of a vendor style relationship vs. wholly owned.
-the spin off campaign has already begun, pinnacle, coex and he named some others
-fuel cost will be driving force for overall cost reduction for major airlines
-RJ fleet will diminish as quickly as turbo prop fleet, with exception of ATR72/42 in the caribeean (sp)
-plenty of vendors will be available for major airlines in future
-RJ cost are rising rapidly

In short it was a very informative presentation. I hope that mainline pilots will get the E170/190. That is just my personal opinion, worth what you paid for it. I do think if I were at a regional as a career pilot, I would be nervous about some of these items in the Boyd presentation. I do hope that all pilots try to make this a profession worth having.

For the record:

I am a furloughed TWA/AA pilot, flying 727 for a supplemental charter operation. I have no horse in this race.

From the "for what it is worth department",

GoFAST

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

071qhc,
I think you're worth every penny you get paid. I'm not sanctioning your BS, just saying that CHQ pilots are worth what they get paid.

It's not industry leading pay though. Is it an industry leading position?

I have a good number of friends there, and I want them to get paid well for what they do. Maybe next time around, you'll do yourself and us a favor by getting more for what you do. Your pay raise benefits both you and me.

BTW "just keep talking" is a chickensh1t way to debate.

 

[spinproof]

I am a furloughed TWA/AA pilot, flying 727 for a supplemental charter operation. I have no horse in this race.

Really!!!! No Horse!! Riiiiiggghhht! Go sell crazy somewhere else we're all stocked up here!...and take the Boyd group with you!

 

[q100]

Those of us who are pilots at regional airlines should be really uncomfortable with the trend of regional airlines flying ever larger aircraft at regional airline pay scales & work rules.

Yes the ER170 is comfy. Not especially reliable, but comfy. But, the sacrifices I'm making for my career will not be worth it if the best we can ever aspire to is flying ER170s at CHQ or Mesa working conditions.

Don't be so gleeful that you are growing so fast and taking over everyone's (mainline) flying, unless you never aspire to make more than your current contract will pay you, 'cos you won't.

The low fare revolution may be here to stay. Let us hope the low pay revolution is not hot on it's heels. Not worth being away from home 2/3 of the month for NYC bus driver pay. Think about it sonny.

MDA = Maintenance Delay Airlines.

ps. Forgive me if I'm wrong but don't the so-called "efficiencies" of regional jets stem from the fact that everybody who works on them earns hourly wages far lower than their mainline counterparts? And don't all CHQs revenues depend on codeshare agreements (pretend to be your big brother partner for advertising purposes, hey, the passengers won't know the difference) with the very major airlines you slam in your post, mr. 071qhc?

 

[canadflyau]

Why in the world would the AA folks even think about the "void btw the CRJ70 and MD80"??? They already have a 90 seater in the Fokker.. and it is mainline.. and they are probably paid for...

 

[General Lee]

Gerry Grinstein at Delta talked about the possibility of E190s at Delta during his SLC talk. As far as who would fly them, he stated:

"I can't see DCI flying them."


And, I think Dalpa would make sure we flew them at mainline--even if it meant lower wages on them. (Delta Express was like that)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GoFaster]

Really!!!! No Horse!! Riiiiiggghhht! Go sell crazy somewhere else we're all stocked up here!...and take the Boyd group with you! [/B][/QUOTE]

Spinproof,

No job=No Horse

It is really a simple equation. I will tell you this though, I personally would like to see all the regionals vanish, consumed by the mainlines and integrated unto their respective seniority list. I will also tell you it will never happen. Pilots are just too greedy and short sighted. We always think that our stuff don't stink and that our company is the "right" one to be with. The truth is its all just luck and timing. Four years ago one group was riding high, right now another group, four more years maybe still another. The one thing each group has in common is that when they are on top, they are the most arrogant and uncooperative group imaginable. Until we all break this ruthless cycle we are going to suffer 100 seat jet Captains pay at 68/hour with no work rules. Just to give you some insight, I was having a beverage one night on a layover while I was flying for TWA and was told by a pilot from a group who THOUGHT they were the 800 lb gorilla, that at least I was building jet time at TWA. Funny how things work out, I bet both of us are out of work now. Anyhow, I ain't selling crazy, just disallusionment are you buying? Belly up to the bar and have a drink on me and lets watch this career (read: job these days) spiral down to the lowest common denominator. Its just so sad.

GoFASTER

 

[canadflyau]

AA also has/had the TWA 717's.. unless they have already unloaded them. With keeping the Fokker and 717 already on the property (or at least recently on the property) would seem a more economic route than the pricey EMB 100 seater and the associated cost of ADDING another fleet type to do the same job, don't ya think?

 

[cathal]

Good Luck, GoFaster. Thanks for the insight and facts, and may we all find happiness in this profession, rather than this rampant distrust of each other.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

My question about the EMB 170 and 190 won't be answered for several years. I'm curious how these birds will hold up. As they age will the dispatch reliability suffer more than the CRJ? Will the EMB cost more or less to maintain than the CRJ after 20-30K hours are on the airframe? How much of a role will customer acceptance play in the market? Right now I read about how customers don't like CRJ's but frankly it seems like all the public cares about is ticket price and they'd ride in a Ford Tri-Motor to save 10 bucks.

 

[DenverDude2002]

I read about how customers don't like CRJ's but frankly it seems like all the public cares about is ticket price and they'd ride in a Ford Tri-Motor to save 10 bucks.

Id ride in a Ford Trimotor period

 

[FlyingDawg]

If mainline wants the 190's they need to stop the regionals from flying the 170's. It seems to me that if they are the same type, they should be flown by the same group. 170's and 190's will be the same type rating.

 

[Draginass]

The TWA 717s that AA got were gone long ago. The last of the Fokkers are gone in Sept.

AMR will have no airplane between the <50 seat RJ and the 130 seat MD-80, except for a few 70 seat RJs. 70 people in a turboprop cabin.

 

[stb]

More EMB 170 info...

The Good..
Nice airplane.
Climbs like a home sick angel fully loaded.

Fully loaded, FL 370 fuel flow....total fuel burn.... less than 3000lbs.

The Bad....

Has ALOT of electronic bugs. Did I say ALOT!

The Ugly...

MDA 170 had a lightning strike. Fried all the exterior antennas.
No radio, no comm, no ACARS.
Fighter escort into PHL.