Ejm

GIVSP

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We are thinking of going with EJM to offset costs during this slow period. Any info you guys have would be great. We operate one Falcon 2000, and fly it around 400 hrs per year. EJM is telling us they would fly it 150 per year with us (the owners pilots) doing the extra flying. Is this something to pursue, or stay far away from. Mature responses please.
 

ksu_aviator

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My boss just looked at using another management company to put the aircraft on part 135. Here is what I learned:

1. You will need $50 million liability insurance. Most charter brokers require a $50 million liability. With out broker flights, you won't get enough work to actually offset the added costs. The additional coverage will run around $20,000 per $10 million in liability. A lot of part 91 aircraft have $5 million, so you might see an increase of $90,000

2. Management companies will charge between $1500 to $3000 per month for the privilege of being on their certificate. Then, they will likely give you 85% of what they bill the customer. That leaves you with an additional $18,000 or more in additional costs.

3. You will have to put your aircraft through a compliance inspection. This will probably run $6,000 or more. Add that to your additional costs.

4. You may or may not have to add equipment that you don't have now. I almost had to add a CVR, that would have been damn expensive.

5. Finally, your boss will have to give up control of his aircraft and only use it if the management company allows him. This is a result of a rule imposed by the FAA after a certain aircraft ran off the end of the runway in TEB. You probably remember that accident. So, the management company has authority over the owner.

6. You will have to quit your job and be hired by the management company. Now, that may be a bonus or a detriment, depending on your current job. On one hand, you may be able to be used on another aircraft if your aircraft gets sold. On the other hand, your benefits might be worse. In my case, it would have made no difference. I would have been paid exactly the same and I chose to get a larger salary over paid benefits because I believe that benefits me more.

When we looked at the numbers, it was hard to justify adding our aircraft to a 135. Rather, we have decided to wait out the economy and then, if needed, add a partner or two. Adding a partner may be a much better option for your owner than putting the aircraft on a charter certificate.
 

54fighting

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5. Finally, your boss will have to give up control of his aircraft and only use it if the management company allows him. This is a result of a rule imposed by the FAA after a certain aircraft ran off the end of the runway in TEB. You probably remember that accident. So, the management company has authority over the owner.
That is not a completely accurate statement. You will hand over operational control on all 135 flights to EJM. Part 91, you have operational control. I know because we are strictly 91 and we always have operational control.

6. You will have to quit your job and be hired by the management company. Now, that may be a bonus or a detriment, depending on your current job. On one hand, you may be able to be used on another aircraft if your aircraft gets sold. On the other hand, your benefits might be worse. In my case, it would have made no difference. I would have been paid exactly the same and I chose to get a larger salary over paid benefits because I believe that benefits me more.
No you don't. That is absolutely absurd. You fill out a new hire packet all over again, but if your boss wants you to stay on the airplane you stay. We met with the D.O. as a formality, there was never an interview. You negotiate your payscale, EJM has nothing to say about it. You will be hard pressed to find better benefits at any other company.

We just brought our plane over to them.
 

400A

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Insurance

Way, way, way off on the insurance numbers. We carry 13 million Hull, $100 million Liability $28K per year. My Broker said it would not go up to much for Charter. I also have VERY flexible open pilot mins.

KSU, let me know if you need my Insurance brokers name. He is right there in ICT. He handles Hawker Beechcraft as well. Not cut rate insurance. Global Aerospace.

Next door hangar neighbor has their Excel on EJM and they are very happy. He has far from lost control of his aircraft. He lets EJM know when it is available for charter. All trips are released and tracked by EJM.
 
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400A

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Sentient /Flightworks

Just do not go anywhere near Sentient or Flightworks. I have 1st hand experience with both. They WILL cut your throat and hose your boss.
 

stupidpilot

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It's not Sentient anymore it's JetDirect. And from what I understand they are going down the tubes fast. No hard data mind you just rumors.
 

Choppy

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It's going to be kind of hard to get those kind of numbers with the charter market in the tank! Tell them to guarantee that! I know an owner managed Falcon that hasn't moved on an EJM charter in 4 months and it wasn's because the owner was using it!

We are thinking of going with EJM to offset costs during this slow period. Any info you guys have would be great. We operate one Falcon 2000, and fly it around 400 hrs per year. EJM is telling us they would fly it 150 per year with us (the owners pilots) doing the extra flying. Is this something to pursue, or stay far away from. Mature responses please.
 

can99

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EJM has great people and is a company to be involved with, flew a ultra for 3 years which was on their certificate as charter managed. Lots of costs for your owner will decrease with EJM as they are a netjets company, ie insurance rates, fuel, no fbo ramp fees, and discounted training at flight safety. And they treat the pilots and planes with respect. They also have a lot of strict rules they fly by ie mountain ops etc which is comforting (especially when I met some Sentient pilots being told to depart MMU last week with nil braking action report!)

Its a very very well set up system to be involved with, we used to fly 400-500 hrs per year 135 with them and every morning they email each pilot a schedule for the plane that goes up to 3 mths in advance with bookings.

Why not ask to be referrred to another falcon 2000 operator on the fleet to get a referral, they used to have a couple online.

Oh and on the money side, we were billed $2500 management fees per mth, and given the FULL $1750 per hour wet for the plane, and got reimbursed for any cleaning, phone charges, deicing , hotels rental cars etc, and it was spot on, paid every month on the same day. Although a lot of the airport stuff was direct billed to ejm. The discounts for all the stuff including hotels and rental cars was also given to us when we were on a owner trip.
 
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siucavflight

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My boss just looked at using another management company to put the aircraft on part 135. Here is what I learned:

1. You will need $50 million liability insurance. Most charter brokers require a $50 million liability. With out broker flights, you won't get enough work to actually offset the added costs. The additional coverage will run around $20,000 per $10 million in liability. A lot of part 91 aircraft have $5 million, so you might see an increase of $90,000

2. Management companies will charge between $1500 to $3000 per month for the privilege of being on their certificate. Then, they will likely give you 85% of what they bill the customer. That leaves you with an additional $18,000 or more in additional costs.

3. You will have to put your aircraft through a compliance inspection. This will probably run $6,000 or more. Add that to your additional costs.

4. You may or may not have to add equipment that you don't have now. I almost had to add a CVR, that would have been damn expensive.

5. Finally, your boss will have to give up control of his aircraft and only use it if the management company allows him. This is a result of a rule imposed by the FAA after a certain aircraft ran off the end of the runway in TEB. You probably remember that accident. So, the management company has authority over the owner.

6. You will have to quit your job and be hired by the management company. Now, that may be a bonus or a detriment, depending on your current job. On one hand, you may be able to be used on another aircraft if your aircraft gets sold. On the other hand, your benefits might be worse. In my case, it would have made no difference. I would have been paid exactly the same and I chose to get a larger salary over paid benefits because I believe that benefits me more.

When we looked at the numbers, it was hard to justify adding our aircraft to a 135. Rather, we have decided to wait out the economy and then, if needed, add a partner or two. Adding a partner may be a much better option for your owner than putting the aircraft on a charter certificate.
I do not think that one of the things that you have said here was at all accurate. I used to do contract work on a citation 650 and not one of those things were true to that airplane which was managed by a 135 company.
 

ksu_aviator

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That is not a completely accurate statement. You will hand over operational control on all 135 flights to EJM. Part 91, you have operational control. I know because we are strictly 91 and we always have operational control.
That is exactly how the management company that we looked at put it. If there are others that will allow the owner to have control of the aircraft, I'd love to hear about them.

No you don't. That is absolutely absurd. You fill out a new hire packet all over again, but if your boss wants you to stay on the airplane you stay. We met with the D.O. as a formality, there was never an interview. You negotiate your payscale, EJM has nothing to say about it. You will be hard pressed to find better benefits at any other company.

We just brought our plane over to them.
Again, this is how they management company that we looked at described the situation. I did not mention that I could be taken off of the aircraft. Just that I would not be working directly for my current boss.
 

ksu_aviator

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Way, way, way off on the insurance numbers. We carry 13 million Hull, $100 million Liability $28K per year. My Broker said it would not go up to much for Charter. I also have VERY flexible open pilot mins.

KSU, let me know if you need my Insurance brokers name. He is right there in ICT. He handles Hawker Beechcraft as well. Not cut rate insurance. Global Aerospace.
I should have clarified. Those numbers are specific to our aircraft and are quotes from Brown, AIG and Loyds of London.
 

ksu_aviator

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I do not think that one of the things that you have said here was at all accurate. I used to do contract work on a citation 650 and not one of those things were true to that airplane which was managed by a 135 company.
Well, since you are so smart, why don't you come up with more accurate information? Or are you too busy looking for your next piece of porn to use for an avatar?
 

Publishers

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Like all these companies, the flying is down on the managed EJM aircraft. Still, they used to use a good many supplementals and that business went away so your chances are better being on EJM. There is no question that they are top notch on all fronts and you will get some benefits from the snyergy with them. I have three aircraft around here that are on their certificate. Only one really cares about the charter income and he still takes only the trips that make sense for him. They get a good deal of calls of course for holiday periods rather than day business type trips.
On one aircraft, the pilots still are with the owner on his payroll and are agents, on another the pilots work directly for EJM but only on that aircraft.
I would say that they are operating at about 50% of the rate of charters from a year ago.
All in all, they are a class act and reasonably priced.
 

fob727

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Well, since you are so smart, why don't you come up with more accurate information? Or are you too busy looking for your next piece of porn to use for an avatar?
Porn??? Is that the best you could come up with?
 

54fighting

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KSU,

Ok, I assumed you were talking about EJM when you referenced this.
 

BoilerUP

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To be on EJM, don't all crewmembers have to meet certain flight time requirements?
 

rice

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My boss just looked at using another management company to put the aircraft on part 135. Here is what I learned:

1. You will need $50 million liability insurance. Most charter brokers require a $50 million liability. With out broker flights, you won't get enough work to actually offset the added costs. The additional coverage will run around $20,000 per $10 million in liability. A lot of part 91 aircraft have $5 million, so you might see an increase of $90,000
WRONG!!!!! But if you're willing to pay those rates I'll be happy to go into the insurance business and make you my one and only client. Truth is, often a GOOD management company can get you better rates with more comprehensive coverage limits.

2. Management companies will charge between $1500 to $3000 per month for the privilege of being on their certificate. Then, they will likely give you 85% of what they bill the customer. That leaves you with an additional $18,000 or more in additional costs.
Again WRONG!!! I've seen monthly fees as high as $12k/mo (I'd never pay that personally) but you can usually get a significant discount if you make the plane available for a bunch of charter work.

3. You will have to put your aircraft through a compliance inspection. This will probably run $6,000 or more. Add that to your additional costs.
Yes you will have to go through a "Conformity" Inspection. How much it costs is completely dependent on how your aircraft is/has been maintained. I've had conformity's which cost nothing and other's which have been very pricey.

4. You may or may not have to add equipment that you don't have now. I almost had to add a CVR, that would have been damn expensive.
Well you will be operating a "commercial aircraft" being held out to the public. Nice to comply with the reg's.

5. Finally, your boss will have to give up control of his aircraft and only use it if the management company allows him. This is a result of a rule imposed by the FAA after a certain aircraft ran off the end of the runway in TEB. You probably remember that accident. So, the management company has authority over the owner.
Uh, NO!!!! Maybe you should go read A008. Any management company worth doing business with will request "Owner Approval" before booking a trip on the plane. True the mgmt. comp. does have "Operational Control" over all 135 flights but only when the plane is being OPERATED.
Owner flights can still be conducted under Part 91 if so desired.

6. You will have to quit your job and be hired by the management company. Now, that may be a bonus or a detriment, depending on your current job. On one hand, you may be able to be used on another aircraft if your aircraft gets sold. On the other hand, your benefits might be worse. In my case, it would have made no difference. I would have been paid exactly the same and I chose to get a larger salary over paid benefits because I believe that benefits me more.
Again WRONG!!!!! Many crews work under an "Agent Agreement" whereby they are still employed/paid by the owner but act as agents and are under the operational control of the certificate holder. (Granted, this is now the exception rather than the rule in today's day and age)

When we looked at the numbers, it was hard to justify adding our aircraft to a 135. Rather, we have decided to wait out the economy and then, if needed, add a partner or two. Adding a partner may be a much better option for your owner than putting the aircraft on a charter certificate.
Very True!!!!!


KSU,
Put the pipe down and step away from the keyboard. Either you don't know WTF you are talking about or you were discussing terms with the ACME Aircaft Management Corp., because every one of your 6 points was either completely incorrect or misguided.

GIVSP,
I'm no great fan of 135 (although we do it with a management company) but if thats the route the boss wants to go you might as well accept it. Our guy likes it because he doesn't fly that much (or so he thinks) and it makes him feel good to know we're out there making him a couple bucks instead of the plane sitting in the hangar for 14-20 days a month.
All depends on the relationship you have with the mgmt. company and the owner.
 
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