Ejm To Be A Union

[EJMPILOTS]

To EJA Pilots:

In the recent months, there has been a growing number of Executive Jet Management pilots that have become disatisfied
with the internal operation of EJM at all levels of management.

We are organizing and exploring opportunities to join or form a pilots union.

We encourage and value all EJA pilot opinions and suggestions.

EJM Pilots For A Union

 

[EJA Capt]

Wow, that's a surprise!

I'm glad to hear it. Keep us posted. We'll be eager to see how it turns out.

Good luck guys.
Call the #284 and sign up.

 

[EJMPILOTS]

Thank you for the support.

It is a difficult objective but all pilots should be on the same team!

 

[LR45JI]

I don't want to step on my pecker here because I am new at EJA (not EJM) but was just curious about the Union issue.

Has there been any talk of a concept like AFPA (Americas Fractional Pilots Association) that would represent all of fractional pilots in the US. (i.e. similar to ALPA)

Had anyone approached ALPA or has ALPA approached any of the leadership within the fractionals wanting to explore the possibility of representation? [I was ALPA for 3 years and can’t really say that would be a good thing]

The fractional business/concept is exploding and there is no telling what the landscape will look like 5, 10, 15, 30 years from now. I think it is very probable that a fractional operator will exceed the size of today’s largest airlines (American, United) and the need for representation will be of the utmost importance.

Nevertheless, I'm sure the Teamsters will fight tooth-n-nail to keep EJA Pilots but I think the issue of a single union representing all pilots in the industry should be explored as the industry grows. Not only to protect our fell pilots to ensure or profession is never jeopardized but to protect the company we work for and to ensure future growth and prosperity with organizational goals kept in mind.

Just my thoughts, for what its worth!

 

[bizjet737]

we tried the alpa thing a few years ago. they really snubbed their noses at us.

one of the other problems is you can't just switch from one afl-cio affiliated union to another. there has to be a waiting period - i think it's two years. there was a loophole where it could be done, but when ATA (if my memory is correct it was ATA) switched, a bunch of beurocrats (teamsters included) got mad and closed the loophole. if we went to alpa, we'd have to go in-house for two years first. also, alpa is too expensive.

 

[GVFlyer]

Unions

UPS got rid of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters....

 

[BBJPILOT]

12 Years Ago! And, they went in house and are not AFL-CIO affiliated.

Now the fun part. They have approached the IBT to sign-up as an affiliate so they can get back under AFL-CIO. As has FedEX, Continental, and even American. Not change Unions, but hook their wagon to the mothership!

 

[EJMPILOTS]

EJMPILOTS

It is time for us at EJM to rethink the rules. The best way for us to improve our situation is to approach it with a fresh perspective and to confront our problem with new ideas.

What has worked in the past for our fellow pilots can now work for us. It is time for us as a group to rethink and to allow new ways to tackle our problems, even if it makes management uneasy. The "OLD WAY" of doing things just will not work anymore. The "Industry" is changing and so are we and it is also time for managment to change. The only way for us to feel comfortable is for us to have a new mindset that can change and keep up with the changes around us. It is time for us to become one UNITED GROUP and to stand together!

ALL EJM PILOTS respond with your comments and support at
[email protected].


CONCERNED EJM PILOTS FOR A UNION

 

[GVFlyer]

EJM Union

Who are you? None of the EJM pilots I've talked to know anything at all about an attempt to organize their company. Most recently, I asked the crew flying N518EJ and their response was typical,"No I don't know anything about it, but why would I want to pay union dues, I already make more money than they do at EJA." Now, obviously they hadn't seen the BBJ pay scale, but the sentiment was typical. So I called Hal Raber and he hasn't heard of you either. What gives?

 

[TAG2]

EJM

I also have talked to many EJM crews on the road and anytime the subject of union organization comes up, they have all said they are happy with the way things are.

I just wonder if the poster is a plant by the IBT.

 

[Toploader]

A plant by the IBT? Funny.

Now, the original poster is looking out for his family, and his fellow pilots at EJM. What's wrong with that? He just wants union protection that is afforded by practically ALL organized, higher paid large pilot forces. He's got alot of work ahead, and maybe he's just getting started, but he's taking the initiative. He has my respect and my support.

I must assume that GVFlyer, while I enjoy reading your fantastic posts, you are coming from a perspective of a smaller outfit in a managerial role, and looking to discount the effectiveness of or need for an organized pilot force.

TAG, your name says it all, I must assume you are working for TAG, a company that is in direct competition with EJA/M/I and non union to boot. Not much I can say about that.

Without a union at EJA this job would be far less secure than it is now. The flying is fantastic, and decisions on the road are left to those in the cockpit, not behind a desk. With union protection, we are secure in that ideal. Sure our pay is laughable. We are working on that. BUT, we ALWAYS know that for the most part, WE are in charge, and it would take a pretty good screw up to get canned. We know what is expected of us, and what is expected of managment.

Our futures are secure at EJA. I am going to let my wife quit working, because after this next contract we'll be better paid than ever, and it's only going up from there.

THANKS, TEAMSTERS LOCAL 284!

Toploader

 

[GVFlyer]

EJM

TAG2

If you do work for TAG, good for you, I think it's a fine organization. I know Jim Christiansen, who unfortunately, is no longer with you. I was a guest at the TAG Standards meeting last month in Dallas. The program is impressive. There is no little airplane complex, the small airplane pilots are given as much presidence as the 757 drivers. Safety is the first consideration. Larry Edeal is as good a standards guy as you'll find anywhere...

I have a friend in TAG at Seattle who's flying both the GX and the GV who is always good for an update on the Bombardier program and is a terrific source of "A-B" comparisons between the two jets. I know Mansour and Aziz Ojjeh peripherally. I have flown with Aziz whose first interest is being a pilot. It can't hurt when the guy at the top loves flying.

Everything about your company seems to be very professional. I recently had to find a charter for a GV. TAG was able to respond within an hour, it took Gulfstream Charter Services 3 days to get back to me.

Back when Rick Schwartz was at Columbus, before he blessed Ford with his leadership, he took me on a tour of EJA. They also are very impressive in every aspect of their operation. I think that there is probably room for two good organizations to prosper in the industry and it benefits pilots by allowing them options in the workplace when they select the company for which they will work.

 

[Muddauber]

TEAMSTER MAGAZINE December 2000
Message from the general president
re: organizing drives.


"...There are many people who balk at the fight. They hide and place their confidence in the hands of employers. Management preys on this weakness by distributing promises like candy during organizing drives and quickly reneging if the workers lose the election. But management must be held accountable."

"As TEAMSTERS we stand up and tackle the challenges that imperil working families."

--James P Hoffa--

"Workers of the world, unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains."

Karl Marx
"The Manefesto of the Communist Party"
1848

By the way, have they found James P's dad yet?









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[Toploader]

By the way, have they found James P's dad jet?

Would've been a great post, except for the typo in the last sentence. What are you getting at, anyway?

Do you know what happened to Hoffa, Sr.? Speculation is that the Mob didn't want him around any longer.

Do you support Mob activities? Is it funny that a man who, while not perfect, gave so many the will to fight for themselves and for a greater cause?

The Marx quote was germane, but as for the Hoffa comment, stay on the sidelines with your unfounded remarks.

Toploader

 

[BBJPILOT]

Don't know about the latest effort, but every year we get at least 2 or 3 calls from EJM, and YES, EJI pilots wanting info on how to get unionized. They call our local, they call our MEC. Maybe this time they plan to do it. Maybe the guy is a management type, wanting prople who are pro union to expose themself! Just as plausible as a Union guy. Also, when "talking" to people "on the road" about Union forming, don't believe every answer you get, they may be telling you what you want to hear, with either answer.

It is kind of like the other fractional pilots who sometimes come up to us on the road and explain why they don't want a Union and how bad they are. Then, inevitably, the question: "When are you guys gonna get your new contract, my pay raise depends on it" OK, I get it now.

 

[Muddauber]

Would've been a great post, except for the typo in the last sentence.

Toploader-

Thanks for the secretarial support - if I could type, I'd make a 100 grand a year less.

Hoffa disappeared on his way to meet with mafioso Anthony Giacalone and New Jersey Teamster boss and underworld associate Anthony Provenzano. You're right, maybe the mob was tired of their boy. All this is in the news again, the feds are trying to bail out and give the case to Michigan.

You remember that Hoffa was sentenced to 13 years for jury tampering and screwing with the pension fund, right? He stayed in the slam 5 years until Nixon pardoned him.










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[EJMPILOTS]

Ref to BBJPILOT: No... we are not from management trying to expose Union supporters. It is much simpler than that. We are a small group of pilots that are very dissatisfied about the procedures for promoting, hiring and firing pilots within EJM.

Great point about being on the road and what is being said and heard. We have absolutely no protection at EJM. Would you expect anything less than answers to questions based on what we think is the motive for the question being asked. Thanks for the support.

Ref to Tag 2: From IBT....definitely No

Ref to TOPLOADER: Thank You..We are underpaid, we do have families, we are team players, and we are just getting started. Have we had formal meetings?...of course not. Do we talk amongst ourselves? Yes we do! Thanks for the Support.

Ref to GVFLYER: Do you really think we would call anyone in EJM management and inform them. The word "Union" in a non union company is suicide. Do you really believe any crew or pilot would even say the word "Union" in a non-union environment other than in the vicinity of people he or she knew and trusted...let alone protest support in public....while on tour...in uniform!

Great Quotes to all of you Historians

 

[Muddauber]

Marx is irrelevant. Workers can unite but that does not mean they accept a bankrupt philosophy.

Let's see, you can walk the walk and talk the talk, but it don't mean nothin'... I get it, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it ain't necessarily a duck. It could be a team player.

I see you have flown tactical aircraft. Which usually go out in section, division or larger flights. Every individual the member of a TEAM (Together Everyone Achieves More). Providing MUTUAL SUPPORT to each other.

Yeah, we went out in sections, but we still reported to the Commander, and we didn't collectively bargain to figure out which orders we were going to follow. When I played ball in college we still listened to the coach and where I work now the management is part of the team and I figure I owe them something for giving me a job. I thought you Marines knew about loyalty.

in other words:

" We must all hang together, or we most assuredly will all HANG separately!"

-- Benjamin Franklin--

Franklin and his band of colonials were at war - are you at war with the guy who signs your paycheck?

With Teamwork and mutual support we will all achieve more....

A team includes all the players to include the guy calling the plays. I have not seen good things from unions. For example, ALPA wanted to get rid of Lorenzo, so they let Charlie Bryant and the IAM run Eastern out of business. There's a few less pilot jobs for you. The Teamsters, when they had a flight department, wouldn't let their own pilots even join the union. What was that about?

Usually what I see is from unions is a bunch of guys squalling to get paid more for doing less and to hell with the company.





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[Muddauber]

EJMPILOT

If you don't like where you work, why don't you vote with you're feet? You knew EJM wasn't union when you signed up, but back then you were just mighty greatful they gave you a job.







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[xanderman]

Powerful stuff

I think that I understand EJMPILOTS desire to have his and his peers voices heard. The need to have some check and balances installed in the system.

You can take all the labor/management classes you want...it still is a dangerous decision. Let me explain my view...

I work for the 2nd largest regional carrier in the country. We within the last year voted in ALPA to represent us (formerly in-house union). We of course had our concerns about many issues ranging from proper representation as a pilot group to individual benefits. In this last year I have lost much faith in the ability of ALPA to represent myself and my peers. Why? Well I don't believe there is some conspiracy. I don't believe there is any ill-will. I simply believe that just like any other BUSINESS they want to make money. Many of our voices go unheard. Why? Well imho I believe it is because we are considered small in the grand scheme of things. And when your "small" your concerns with the industry and your concerns about how the company is treating you are of little consequence to ALPA when Delta or United have some major crisis going on. Yet they are still quite happy to collect that 1.95% of my gross wages every paycheck. If I sound rather bitter that is not my intention. I'm trying to share my reality with you. ALPA is not a 'bad" union. They are big business. They "sold" us their product. Now that I have it I'm not so sure I like it.

Unions are a necessary evil. They can be a great protection and a great burden. I suppose you'll ultimately decide which will serve you best. Remember though just because you have a union on property does not mean that YOUR voice will be heard or that YOUR job will be saved. And that my friend is the reality of it...

 

[EJMPILOTS]

ejm

Ref to Muddauber:

"Vote with your Feet"

Do these words mean anything: Economy, Sept 11th, Industry,
Family, Stability. Everyone has a choice but lets be logical.



"You knew EJM wasn't a Union"

Would you say the same to an EJA pilot that was unhappy
with the Union....ie...."You new it was a union" That type of statement would probably be your comment to any person who did not like where he/she worked regardless of the subject matter.

A good number of us have little or no experience with unions. Only recently, since the inception of fractional, has there been so much on tour" socialization between crews. This has lead to better awareness of unions/non-unions, quality of life, pay scales, benefits etc.. We may be guilty of ignorance but ignorance is a result of not knowing and understanding.

Should we take a college study course on union/non-unions before we enter corporate America or before accepting a job? Should we ask the union or management to give us a speech....how biased would that be? Maybe when we receive an application for a job, there should be a two extra pages explaining the differences. Maybe you could come give a speech...now that would not be biased...would it?


"Mighty Grateful to get a job"

An act of desperation...No Sir! You are conversing with multiple
individuals that have access to this message board. Some having
less but most being just as experienced as yourself if not more,
including all branches of the military. Some at the end of a career
and most in mid career. You would be hard pressedto find 3 pilots under the age of thirty within this company. "Mighty Grateful"...No! Appreciative and lucky to work with a very experienced group...Yes.

 

[publisher]

Caution

I would just suggest a little caution and slow speed forward position.

EJM is a different company and a different business than the fractionals..

Aircraft management companies are usually set up considerably different than the structure put together at fractionals and it would be a mistake not to remember that in considering taking a position similar to fractionals.

 

[Cliff]

Hey EJMPILOTS don't let Muddauber adjust your trim, he's just a disgrunted SWA guy trying to start a fight.

He's probally on one of his 2 day turns and is pissed at the world.. If you want a UNION at your shop go for it!!! Just make sure its got some balls before you vote'em in...

We at EJA are behind you 100%........

Don't vote for ALPA...!!!!! They will bone the little guys

 

[Cliff]

Cliff,

If you worked for Herb you probably would not think a union was necessary either.

But Gunfyter I would never work for SWA because I don't believe in pay for training... Gotta draw a line somewhere and stand your ground...
Besides, they work to @amn, Da@n, Dam@, much!

See you on the road..........

Cliff

 

[JayDub]

Yo Cliff.

Cliff,

Sorry buddy, but you just hit a chord. Exactly who, along with SWA, do you think led the industry in PFT??? They even preceded Comair, which has the dubious distinction of introducing PFT to all of the commuters! The only reason you don't know about this is because everybody with a DOH before about 1999 at your lovely company would LOVE for you to not know this! Don't even preach from your pulpit!

EJMpilots, hate to say it bud, but the other poster is correct. The only way you'll make a change is to vote with your feet. H.R. use to tell me ALL THE TIME, "you don't like it, leave". So I did.

You know those work rules you have now that "aren't enough"? Those came about after January of 1999, which happened to be when myself and one or two other people you've never heard of, left. They never thought we'd leave, let alone to go where we went. We had no work rules. We'd take what they gave us, and like it!

Podster will never, ever let you unionize. You describe this group that is working on this. You ever stop and realize what you have in common? How about being unemployable anywhere else? Why do you think they love Army Helo guys??? Perfect example is old H.R. his own self. Would you hire him? The others on this board may not not know the real story, but a few of us do. You took a short-cut to a jet job, and now you want what the better guy has. I am telling you right now, there is absolutely nothing standing between you and the unemployment line if word gets out you are serious about this. You think I am just blowing dust? Ask the REAL reason all of those guys went to EJI. Ask about Frobreg and the gang.

I am all for a guy getting better than he expected, but listen to me... you have no idea. You are by NO means coming up with an original idea. It's been talked about, discussed, and hashed over. Podster would rather see it fold than for that to happen. Remember, he has a running job offer in N.J. (as if he really needs a job), what about you?

Hate to break it to you, but it's reality slapping you in the face. EJA would love loving more than to have EJM without a single pilot, or airplane, and the beautiful new hangar as a new(non-union) MX shop! Please, please listen to me. I have been down that road. The very best deal we could imagine in the old days was a staple ti EJA's list with a fence! Why do you think they want you to call their local? Imagine now, when even more cards are being dealt fron THEIR deck?

What do I have to gain? What do the guys making your life heck have to gain? Listen to the unbiased source.

JayDub

 

[Cliff]

JAYBUD- I hate to say it bud, but I didn't pay for my training the company paid for my training and guess what I didn't even have to sign a training contract. I've been with EJA now for 3 years and like I said in my other post I wouldn't pay for training! Guys that pay for training are playing their part time employee card- waiting for a major airline job.

When I was hired if you had 5ooo hours the company paid for your training. I would not be here if I had to pay for training.. Pay for training is a slap in the face to every professional pilot in the world. Know one should apply to a pay for training company EJA included and I mean any company including SWA. Comair etc...

Pilots lower the pay scales by applying to pay for training companys. EJA pays for your training now, have been for the last 16 month's or so...

Jaybud don't bad mouth Army Rotary-wing pilots they are better trained than you could ever hope of being.. Most Army pilots are also fixed-wing pilots.. Prehaps one day I will alow you to carry a warriors flight bag to his aircraft..

EJMPILOTS go for the UNION thing, don't run away from it like the others have.....

 

[Muddauber]

Getting a little rilled there, aren't you pardner?

I had to get the ALO block colored-in, so I did some joint-service time with the Army; great bunch of guys, even if they do spend too much time in tents. They fight with soldiers so in the Army it's people that are important; in the Air Force it's airplanes and in the Navy, it's boats.

I think you got your statement backwards, thought, that most Army helicopter pilot's are also Army fixed-wing pilots. It would be right to say that all Army fixed-wing pilots are helicopter pilots, but I'm pretty sure that the reverse isn't true. The numbers wouldn't work for one thing, the Army has about 6,000 helicopters and about 300 airplanes. See, I paid attention during indoctrination. One of the green suiters I worked with told me that in the Army it was easier to get a battalion command than a fixed-wing transition.

Carry on, warrior...

 

[JayDub]

Cliff, you said...

"When I was hired if you had 5ooo hours the company paid for your training. I would not be here if I had to pay for training. Pay for training is a slap in the face to every professional pilot in the world. Know one should apply to a pay for training company EJA included and I mean any company including SWA. Comair etc.

Pilots lower the pay scales by applying to pay for training companys. EJA pays for your training now, have been for the last 16 month's or so... "

So, basically you are saying any company that participates in this is wrong... unless they don't make you do it. Then they are just hunky dory??? Whatever.

You are totally speculating about my training, first off. You have no idea the training I have or have not had, so you can't make a qualified judgment.

Secondly, the training the army provides may be the absolute best in the world. All I am saying is, I have never heard of a single airline that actively recruits Army pilots. In fact, it is quite rare to see a pilot with Army experience only at any quality operation.

Also, I am speaking of the situation specifically at EJM, again something you have absolutely no clue about. EJM has a habit of putting people in management positions that have motivation to be loyal. Specifically an ex-Army guy that didn't get a fixed wing transition through the Army, who couldn't manage his way out of a wet paper bag, IMHO.

Lastly, my post is a warning not to throw their lot in with EJA's union. If they were so lovely, why is 90% of the maintenance they have done, that isn't done on the road, done by the non-union EJM mechanics? Ever visited Cincinnati? Last I knew, EJM mechanics out numbered EJA mechanics based in CMH, and there isn't a darn thing the union either can or will do about it. Yet EJA pilots would then have access to all the advantages of EJM, while yet again merely throwing bones to EJM's pilots. Not exactly an ideal situation.

All in all Cliff, you are having a Cliff Claven moment. You are espousing on subjects of which you have no clue. Believe me, you can't draw a single relevant conclusion about EJM based on experience with EJA.

Other than that, I wish you all much luck in your contract negotiations. The industry needs you to lead in pay, for once. Fly safe.


JayDub

 

[GVFlyer]

In fact, it is quite rare to see a pilot with Army experience only at any quality operation.


JayDub

With that sort of attitude I'd stay away from Phillip Morris, Proctor and Gamble, and Bristol-Myers-Squibb, just to name a few, their Aviation Managers and Chief pilots might be offended.

You know the last time I went into Andrews AFB, the Army had a G-V, a G-IV, a couple of G-III's, a Learjet and a bunch of Citations on their ramp as I taxied by. I'd say that's probably pretty good training for somebody. I read in AWS&T that they are getting another GV and the Citation contract has been extended to 65 jets.

In interoperability assignments, I've flown with everybody but the Marines. I think they all are a bunch of pro's.





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[GVFlyer]

EJM Aircraft

I just returned from Puerta Vallarta where I saw an EJM DC G-III on the ramp; N395EJ. It looked good with the EJM paint scheme. I didn't know you guys had any Gulfstreams on your ticket. Do you manage any other large cabin aircraft?