Ejection

[Mogus]

Could someone elaborate on what goes on when you eject? What kind of forces are exerted on the body? A USAFA grad spoke to us at Boys State and mentioned that he didn't know anyone that had ejected and not had a screwed-up spine afterwards. Is that true? Just curious. Thanks...

 

[chawbein]

I'ld believe it. I don't relish the thought of having a rocket strapped to my ass.

 

[firstthird]

I didn't fly ejection seat aircraft so am not an expert but I'm pretty darned certain that not "every" person who ever ejected had a screwed up spine.

Basically, I think a lot has to do with whether or not you are in the envelope for ejection, if you are cruising at 600 mph and pull the handle, that probably is outside the envelope for most planes. Some planes you have to have a certain minimum speed since they don't have a 0/0 ejection seat.

I think there is a rule saying that after your 2nd (or 3rd) ejection you are done flying ejection seat aircraft though. I don't have exact numbers but I'm sure there is something like 20 g's or maybe more applied during the ejection cycle. of course, the alternative is likely much worse or you wouldn't be giving that particular plane back to the taxpayers. I think the jet guys have a saying that the PK of the ground is 1.0 (meaning if you impact terra firma it will kill you, PK= percentage kill; used to rate AA systems I'm pretty sure)

I'm an old P-3 bubba though so I'm more knowledgable about per diem and travel claim check cashing.

Actually, here is a paper about it from some Navy Flight Surgeons.

http://www.vnh.org/FSManual/22/04Dynamics.html

It does talk about a high incidence of vertbre injuries mainly resulting from improper body position (maybe if you are out of the envelope survival becomes the problem vs. injuries).

We've got lots of pointy-nose drivers on the board, hopefully they'll enlighten us.

 

[PTWOB]

I have several bud's who have ejected from several different types of airframes with no long term ill effects. To piggyback a little, it has a lot to do with aircraft attitude, speed, proper body position, etc. The newer ejection seat system is the more likely it is to protect the flyer sitting in it through a wider range of parameters. I'm sure that the comment about 100% spinal injuries is a bit of an exageration.

 

[talondriver]

I'ld believe it. I don't relish the thought of having a rocket strapped to my ass.

I'd take the rocket over the alternative. I'm to the point where I'd be uncomfortable flying in a jet without an ejection seat.
As for the effects of ejecting..
I've never had to use the seat (knock on titanium) but it would surely depend on your body position during the sequence as well as the parameters of the jet at the time of ejection. I know guys that have punched and they're fine.

 

[AlbieF15]

As for "screwed up spines", there are more than a few old fighter pilots with holes in their necks from vertebrae surgery even WITHOUT ejecting. My former ANG Det commander is one...and I've met lots more. My former boss was a Viper driver for many years, and from what I here the surgery is not that uncommon. Any Semper Viper types know the surgery?

 

[talondriver]

I know two former Viper dudes who had the "neck" surgery" within then last year (both T-38 IPs). One was an old cranium and the other was fairly young. The younger guy's trying for a stink bug.

 

[CCDiscoB]

I'm to the point where I'd be uncomfortable flying in a jet without an ejection seat.

Same
What about those guys at air shows that fly around in single engine jets, like the F-86 and MiG-21, without ejection seats. Crazy if you ask me. Heck, I wouldn't fly an air show F-4 without a seat.

 

[GumbyDarnit]

I am an old Viper driver and have never heard of the Surgery, but I will say that I could use some kind of help. There is always someone in the squadron walking around with a stiff (STS) neck. I myself would have had to quit flying Vipers several years ago if I could not have gotten help from a Chiroprator. Of course I can only say that now that I've retired because it is almost viewed as self medicating. Now I'm dating a Chiroprator, she rocks!

There is no rule that says you must stop flying an AC with an ejection seat after you had 2 or 3 ejections. On the other hand I have only heard of one guy who had more than one, but Paul Gilcrist wasn't him. When I was flying the stink bug (I prefer to call it the cockroach cause it's really ugly and only comes (STS) out at night) my flight commander ejected from an A-7 over Indianoplis. His back was screwed up until he ejected, the rocket ride "fixed him up". That was the only good thing to come (STS) out of that accident. Getting your back fixed from an ejection certainly wouldn't be the norm though.

About the ejection envelope. Sink rate has the biggest determination for the envelope, therefore how your dive angle and airspeed combine for sink rate will determine the envelope. Air Force guidance for minimum ejection altitudes is 2000 AGL for a controlled flight ejection and 6000 AGL for an out of controlled flight ejection (assumes a very LARGE sink rate, something in the order of 15,000 ft/min). The actual envelope is MUCH more capable then the guidance.

A word about high speed ejections. Current egress equipment in the front line fighters will work up to the placard limit of the aircraft (800 KIAS or MACH 2.05 for the Viper). The problem encountered is flayling injuries. Somewhere above 450 calibrated will produce flayling injuries. Somewhere above 550 cal will really hurt. I've had two former squadron mates go out above 600. They both drowned as a result of their flayling injuries.

As Talondriver said, body position is very important to how your spine will handle the ride.

All that being said, ejection seats are a very very good piece of equipment. I miss having that option a great deal and don't relish the idea of not having a rocket strapped to my a$$.

So to finally answer the question whether it is true that everyone who ejects is going to have a messed up spine. It is not true, I know of scores of guys and gals who have ejected with no ill effects. In fact, I know of no one outside of those who receive flayling injuries who had any problems from their silk letdown experience.

How's that?

I'm Gumby darnit.

 

[Draginass]

It is certainly possible to be injured in an ejection. Many have, but most have not, if the ejection is relatively slow speed and sufficient altitute. One can expect severe flailing injuries at airspeeds above 500 KIAS. Retaining your helmet in a hi-speed ejection is also unlikely.

Given the alternative, ejecting seems like a good risk if needed.

 

[DaveGriffin]

I had a good friend that ejected from an EA-6B out in Washington state several years ago. He was fortunate in that the Navy had just installed the latest and greatest Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection system in the airplane.

Al four of them got out with minor injuries and are doing well today. The interesting part of the story (if it wasn't just BS bar talk) was that they set the record for the lowest altitude, highest speed ejection without a fatality. My buddy doesn't remember anything about the ejection other than regaining consciousness just before landing in tall trees.

Martin-Baker sent them all a pretty funny t-shirt commemorating their feat.

 

[Chunk]

The 4 seats in the S-3 go from handle pull to swinging chutes in .92 seconds, according to the big blue sleeping pill. Zero/zero.


Never did it myself. I did find my hand around the handle once after wakin....errr....meditating. Learned to slee....I mean meditate, while sitting on my hands.

Chunk

 

[JayDub]

There is no rule that says you must stop flying an AC with an ejection seat after you had 2 or 3 ejections. On the other hand I have only heard of one guy who had more than one, but Paul Gilcrist wasn't him. When I was flying the stink bug (I prefer to call it the cockroach cause it's really ugly and only comes (STS) out at night) my flight commander ejected from an A-7 over Indianoplis. His back was screwed up until he ejected, the rocket ride "fixed him up". That was the only good thing to come (STS) out of that accident. Getting your back fixed from an ejection certainly wouldn't be the norm though.

I know this crash! Man, what he did with that a/c was absolutely incredible. What happened to him after this? Was he given another command? To say he's got some stick and rudder skills is an understatement.

For the record, it was the center controller that screwed the pooch. The Air Force was just ticked he didn't ditch the plane away from people (and snooping journalists).

JayDub

 

[Draginass]

"Flayling injuries....

Don't the seats have leg and arm restraints that pull in the legs and arms to help prevent this?"

Yes, but the airloads are extremely severe in the 500k range. The ACES II seat does have leg restraints (which are pretty good) and arm restraints (which are pretty weak, IMHO). In high speed ejections, the occupant stays with the seat until it slows down enough to initiate man-seat separation. Regardless no matter how well you're restrained, you're probably going to be injured in a high speed ejection. The other factor is that it's unlikely that you'll retain your helmet once it hits the slipstream.

 

[Chunk]

The "ESCAPAC" model I flew didn't have any leg/arm restraints. Of course, our Mmo was .79, so there probably wasn't much need.

 

[korn]

Arm & Leg Restraints

The B-1 version of the ACES II has arm and leg straps that make sure that all your parts get through the hatch and may help with flailing injuries. (It also has arm rests that are pretty much useless and may be dangerous in an ejection.) Other versions of the seat (Viper, Eagle) don’t have the restraint straps (or arm rests). There are metal pieces on the sides of the seat that help keep arms and legs where they should be, too. But at really high speeds, physics demands flexibility.

 

[BeanFighter]

True confessions, I used an old LS-1A seat from a T-2. The jet was tumbling from a midair so body position was out the window. Speed was fairly slow (200-300), alt was below 5K', attitude unknown. The seat worked great, flail injury to leg (no straps) kept me med down for a month. No back problems at all. Moral of the story is don't delay, pull the handle.

 

[Eagleflip]

I watched a buddy jump out of an Eagle during landing with no left main gear at Osan, ROK one morning.

Great view...there he was, skidding off of the runway with his left wing digging into the dirt, doing 100 knots easy while heading into the deeper dirt. He had had enough and pulled the handles.

Our eyes followed the biggest piece until it hit the dirt--oh my BUDDAH! HE JUST DIED!

Oh, wait a minute...that was just the seat. There he was, hanging under a fully deployed canopy at about 80 feet AGL.

He wound up doing a stand up landing (just how much money did the AF spend teaching us how to do PLFs anyway?) and waved at us. Then he started over to shut down the engines, which were now eating lots of red Korean dirt, spewing the digested turf out the back end in energetic plumes. With a dismissive wave of his hand, he quickly abandoned that idea.

Later, after realizing that he'd lost two inches of height during the days events (he gained all but 1/4 back), we saw a great opportunity for a slam.

At the hospital the next day before being released, the squadron commander delivered an official-looking letter to our buddy. To wit: "

Capt B____,
Prior to your accident you were 5'8" and weighed 179 lbs, below the maximum weight standard identified by the Air Force. As a result of your accident, however, you now measure 5'6" but still weigh 179 lbs. As you are aware, this exceeds Air Force weight standards.

As such, you are now placed on the mandatory Air Force weight management program. Blah blah blah...."

Oh baby-he was hot! Didn't get the joke at all, our buddy...We thought it was a big yuk, though.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I knew 2 guys that ejected. One guy was one of my college girlfriend's dad-Navy in Pensacola. He claimed he was the 1st to be ejected by someone else.

He was flying a trainer in the early 60s, which caught on fire-which required an immediate ejection.

He was reaching for the face curtain, when he went out (the aircraft had sequenced ejection seats, and the student beat him too it-so he was ejected by his student). He got a severe elbow injury because of his arm position, but no back injuries.

He went down in the water near the giant bridge out of PNS which was then under construction-the workers picked him up in a small boat-his student was fine. He kept flying for the Navy.

The other guy was someone I knew from Helos, and I saw him my 2nd day at Vance. I was in the parachute shop and asked him how it was going. He said OK except he ejected a couple of days before.

He was a student in a T-37, which caught on fire just after a TO out at a stage field. He asked the IP if he should eject the canopy-the IP said no-they were ejecting. The IP sent him first, got some more altitude, then he punched out. Both had no injuries and returned to flying very soon.

I also read about (in KC-135R training) a crew who bailed out of a KC-135. They were all fine, and the instructor who stayed in the plane landed it short, at the destination airfield, after flaming out several engines. He wasn't hurt either.

I'm glad I never had to eject.

Cliff
DTW

 

[JimNtexas]

One of my best friends in the USAF ejected from a burning F-4G near George AFB. Somehow when the seat separated it punched through his canopy and the chute just collapsed into a streamer.

Amazingly he was not killed, but he was tore up pretty badly and had to move from F-4s to EC-130s. He lost a couple of inches of height. That was 15 years ago, from that day to this he is always in varying degrees of pain.

Another friend had a wrench jam the elevators in an F-4G full aft on takeoff. His rocket motor did not fire, but between the gunpowder charge and the attitude of the airplane he just fell out of the aircraft and got one swing before he hit the ground. He had to wear a full body cast for couple of months, but made a full recovery.

I must say that the F-4 Martin Barker seat was used a lot, and generally with good results. These two cases were the only malfunctions that I ever heard of.

I knew a couple of guy who ejected using the F-111 capsule. The capsule was great unless you landed on a hard surface. Because the capsules were heavier than they should have been, you hit pretty hard and back injuries were common. My friends both landed on marshy ground so they were ok.

One guy had spun out of the holding pattern at RAF Upper Heyford (tried a little to hard to save gas). They landed near a phone booth. My buddy had one ten pence coin, so he uses it to call our command post (IAW our SOP). The Command Post controller answers the phone by saying "WE JUST HAD A PLANE CRASH AND WE CAN'T TALK NOW!", and hangs up, leaving our hero in the phone booth with no more coins to call anyone with.

As far as I know there was no limit on the number of ejections one could enjoy in the USAF.