East USair....Recall capt. jack!!!

[captairbusbb]

To all you easties who believed capt. jack and your Merger Comittee that DOH 'is a done deal, it's always been that way at Usair", I believe you should direct your anger and frustration at the men who promised you the world and left you with a bag of horse manure.

Recall capt. jack and your Merger Committee before they can do any more damage than they have already done.

This list is final........legal and binding. When given the chance to come back to Nicolau with a reasonable proposal, capt. jack and your MC balked, demanded DOH and the plan backfired big time!!!

Your future meetings with Prater and the West MEC will be futile. The DOH battle was lost, and now is the time to accept that fate and put the blame on your leadership who lead you to believe the unobtainable FAILED miserably.

"Burn down the house", "leave the West with the ashes" and all your other BS mantra will only allow you miserable folks in the east to die even younger than you should. Get over it......move on......start the move.

RECALL capt. jack AND YOUR MC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Green]

To all you easties who believed capt. jack and your Merger Comittee that DOH 'is a done deal, it's always been that way at Usair", I believe you should direct your anger and frustration at the men who promised you the world and left you with a bag of horse manure.

Recall capt. jack and your Merger Committee before they can do any more damage than they have already done.

This list is final........legal and binding. When given the chance to come back to Nicolau with a reasonable proposal, capt. jack and your MC balked, demanded DOH and the plan backfired big time!!!

Your future meetings with Prater and the West MEC will be futile. The DOH battle was lost, and now is the time to accept that fate and put the blame on your leadership who lead you to believe the unobtainable FAILED miserably.

"Burn down the house", "leave the West with the ashes" and all your other BS mantra will only allow you miserable folks in the east to die even younger than you should. Get over it......move on......start the move.

RECALL capt. jack AND YOUR MC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you can't blame the east MC. Originally they advised that a DOH policy would not be in the best interests of US Airways. Then the MEC passed a resoloution stating that DOH must be used in the MC strategy. Effectively the MC's hands were tied.

 

[Lear70]

you can't blame the east MC. Originally they advised that a DOH policy would not be in the best interests of US Airways. Then the MEC passed a resoloution stating that DOH must be used in the MC strategy. Effectively the MC's hands were tied.

Don't confuse the NooB with FACTS...

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Don't confuse the NooB with FACTS...

Naw Lear there is a whole lot of truth to those statement. A whole lot indeed...


WD.

 

[Lear70]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think the way UAir approached it was assinine and stupid.

Just hate it when people who aren't on the inside of a company start throwing names and blame around and start talking about recalls at a carrier they aren't a part of.

In this case, he/she obviously WILL be part of that group when integrated, but it only fuels the fire for the East guys who are already P.O.'d and looking for someone to take their frustrations out on.

Like I've said before. Would be better if all the West guys just sat back and bit their tongue rather than fuel the fire.

But then again, this IS Flightinfo.

 

[enigma]

you can't blame the east MC. Originally they advised that a DOH policy would not be in the best interests of US Airways. Then the MEC passed a resoloution stating that DOH must be used in the MC strategy. Effectively the MC's hands were tied.

Sounds like the MEC was the problem if I read your post correctly.

 

[captairbusbb]

Lear........sorry to burst your bubble, but the NooB, as you proclaim has been gainfully employed at AWA for 18 yrs.

I'm not an outsider as you proclaim. NooB on this board, yes. NooB to this industry not!!

You might speak for your DADDY who is long gone from USair, but if you can't admit to the fact that capt. jack and the MC screwed their own pooch with their DOH mantra, then you have a problem. They promised EAST the world and got exactly what Nicolau said ,"DOH is DOA".

So when I say recall capt. jack and the MC, I speak as an insider to get this arbitration award to move forward, and forget about de-certifiying ALPO, and burning down the house, leave WEST with the ashes.

The old Usair is gone..........the new Usair is here. Take that for what it's worth!!

And by the way, your epilogue quote from phxflyr about the fiancee thing on every one of your posts is getting a little bit stale. WTF does it mean, and WTF cares?

 

[PositiveRate]

Lear, you are a huge hypocrite.

You said:
"Just hate it when people who aren't on the inside of a company start throwing names and blame around..."

You are not on the inside of the company (your dad used to fly for US...that doesn't count. sorry)

You said:
"Like I've said before. Would be better if all the West guys just sat back and bit their tongue rather than fuel the fire."

And you are doing what these days? Hmmm....you've been dry kindling on the fire as well.

Just so I've got this straight before you go to my ignore list....an AirTran pilot whose daddy is retired US Air feels he is in the position to opine on this merger and call out others who aren't outsiders and also tell the West (who does have a dog in this fight) that they should just bite their tounges...you know...for the team? Hmmm.

FU dude. Get a life.

 

[F9 Driver]

Just hate it when people who aren't on the inside of a company start throwing names and blame around ...

Now try living it! Worry about your own house for a while.

 

[CoAlpha]

"usair" just as bad as mesa. Its funny how this place is so bad that even regional pilots would never want to work there. Why would anyone accept a recall? Just got to sw,fdx,ups,frontier, or skywest even?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I think the way UAir approached it was assinine and stupid.

Just hate it when people who aren't on the inside of a company start throwing names and blame around and start talking about recalls at a carrier they aren't a part of.

In this case, he/she obviously WILL be part of that group when integrated, but it only fuels the fire for the East guys who are already P.O.'d and looking for someone to take their frustrations out on.

Like I've said before. Would be better if all the West guys just sat back and bit their tongue rather than fuel the fire.

But then again, this IS Flightinfo.

Well Lear, if you had asked me I would have told you that I recognize the writing and had a pretty good idea who he was. Yes the East MEC was/still is the problem. They were never honest with those they represent and now the East is focused on us as the bad guys.

They micro managed every aspect of everything then lied to their pilot group about something they knew could never get even after they were advised against that move. So whose the really to blame here Lear???

WD

 

[Lear70]

Lear........sorry to burst your bubble, but the NooB, as you proclaim has been gainfully employed at AWA for 18 yrs.

You're a NooB to the board, and your first posts are spewing absolute bile.

Great job.

So when I say recall capt. jack and the MC, I speak as an insider to get this arbitration award to move forward, and forget about de-certifiying ALPO, and burning down the house, leave WEST with the ashes.

An insider at West, that's certainly agreeable.

However, if THAT is your idea of "getting this arbitration to move forward", then you know absolutely NOTHING about leadership and should maybe take a course or two in it (Forgetting most of what you know about Aviation Management).

You don't lead people by demeaning and belittling them and their coworkers who were elected to help them get through this, no matter how bad a job they did. That does nothing but p*ss people off. As a professional aviator, you should know better. Do you treat your crews like this as well?

And by the way, your epilogue quote from phxflyr about the fiancee thing on every one of your posts is getting a little bit stale. WTF does it mean, and WTF cares?

If you don't know what it means, then it's not intended for you.

If you don't like that it shows up on each and every post, complain to the mods about how they have it set up.

As far as stale goes, it's only been up for a week or two,,, other sigs have been up for years, so I think I'm still safely in the "OK" zone... but thanks for asking.

Lear, you are a huge hypocrite.

You said:
"Just hate it when people who aren't on the inside of a company start throwing names and blame around..."

You are not on the inside of the company (your dad used to fly for US...that doesn't count. sorry)

You missed the point, which doesn't surprise me.

The whole person who started this quote doesn't work at USAirways... he works at America West and started throwing mud from the very first second.

So yeah, he wasn't a member of the UAir MEC and jumped in like he knew exactly what had happened and started yet ANOTHER post just to p*ss people off.

That doesn't make me a hypocrite. I never claimed that either side was right or wrong.

My whole argument from day one on this is that from a moral and ethical standpoint, the Nicolau Award is wrong, and has sent a huge windfall to one group.

That's it. No hypocrisy, no blaming one side or the other for anything, just calling a spade a spade. Sorry if that doesn't sit comfortably with you...

Just so I've got this straight before you go to my ignore list....an AirTran pilot whose daddy is retired US Air feels he is in the position to opine on this merger and call out others who aren't outsiders and also tell the West (who does have a dog in this fight) that they should just bite their tounges...you know...for the team? Hmmm.

FU dude. Get a life.

Yeah, I'm in a position to call bullsh*t when people start acting like teenagers and slamming people who have been beat up again and again by management and this industry.

That's called being a human being. Doesn't matter who I work for, doesn't matter who my daddy was; it's wrong, and every single one of you knows it.

Funny how big some people's ego over there got after the award, and thanks for being so "adult" in your debate.

Well Lear, if you had asked me I would have told you that I recognize the writing and had a pretty good idea who he was. Yes the East MEC was/still is the problem. They were never honest with those they represent and now the East is focused on us as the bad guys.

Thanks for responding politely and intelligently.

And yeah, the MEC appears to have a lot to answer for, and they're wrong to want to take it out on you guys... That said, I can't blame the line pilots for being upset and trying to figure out a way to either mitigate the loss.

They micro managed every aspect of everything then lied to their pilot group about something they knew could never get even after they were advised against that move. So whose the really to blame here Lear???

I never said the AWA MEC had any blame whatsoever, nor do MOST of the AWA line pilots. You guys came into this being the underdog and hoped for something fair... you got a LOT more than you thought you would, and came out smelling like roses.

There's a select few on here that can't seem to recognize the obvious (Nicolau's ruling is a windfall to West), and can't seem to come right out and say it, then go a couple steps further by disparaging the side who "lost".

I thought pilots were, by and large, more "gentlemanly" than that.

And, for the record, did we REALLY need a 3rd thread running bashing UAir and its MEC/MC?

Come on...

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Thanks for responding politely and intelligently.

And yeah, the MEC appears to have a lot to answer for, and they're wrong to want to take it out on you guys... That said, I can't blame the line pilots for being upset and trying to figure out a way to either mitigate the loss.

I never said the AWA MEC had any blame whatsoever, nor do MOST of the AWA line pilots. You guys came into this being the underdog and hoped for something fair... you got a LOT more than you thought you would, and came out smelling like roses.

There's a select few on here that can't seem to recognize the obvious (Nicolau's ruling is a windfall to West), and can't seem to come right out and say it, then go a couple steps further by disparaging the side who "lost".

I thought pilots were, by and large, more "gentlemanly" than that.

And, for the record, did we REALLY need a 3rd thread running bashing UAir and its MEC/MC?

Come on...

Lear,

As someone with more knowledge than most on this particular subject I can say for an absolute certainty that their own MEC is to blame and there are no two ways about it. I've sat there and watched it first hand so this is not what someone told me.

Many have stated that AWA got some sort of windfall but that simply is not true and here's why. Our number one guy on our list who retires next month lost 517 numbers right out of the gate, while the number one guy on there list lost nothing at all and that continues for the next 517 pilots. So you get the picture as to our number 2,3,4 and so on.

The bottom guys on our list who is a res 737 pilot is still on the bottom and is still a res 737 pilot. The pilot just jr to him was on furlough for 6 yrs and outside of this transaction he had no prospects of ever returning to AAA this is what Nicalou stated in his opinion. That furloughed pilot is now flying widebody international with some 300 pilots below him.

We got no windfall and if you and others really carefully examine the award and opinion you will see that. The furloughs were and in some cases still are furloughed for over six years and counting, that had service at the time of over 13 yrs. When you look at a person who worked for a company and is furloughed with that amount of time in it becomes apparent that the company is in the final stages of life. Now that's a whole different debate and most of the noise makers on this forum really have no idea just how close they were to doors closure. Nicalou got an opportunity to see the money they had left just weeks prior to this announcment. One fact that you and many may not know is that AWA covered their employees salaries for weeks prior to the official announcment!!!

So you see Lear there are many many things that most just don't see or even know about this deal. Keep in mind that the rabbit hole is much deeper that you may think!!

Reporting live from the inside WD with and exclusive

WD.

 

[Lear70]

Many have stated that AWA got some sort of windfall but that simply is not true and here's why. Our number one guy on our list who retires next month lost 517 numbers right out of the gate, while the number one guy on there list lost nothing at all and that continues for the next 517 pilots. So you get the picture as to our number 2,3,4 and so on.

The bottom guys on our list who is a res 737 pilot is still on the bottom and is still a res 737 pilot. The pilot just jr to him was on furlough for 6 yrs and outside of this transaction he had no prospects of ever returning to AAA this is what Nicalou stated in his opinion. That furloughed pilot is now flying widebody international with some 300 pilots below him.

We got no windfall and if you and others really carefully examine the award and opinion you will see that.

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

I look at it and see that your senior pilots are in no worries of losing their positions NOR their career earnings expectations due to the integration award and, in fact, are well-protected in their current bases, positions, and income.

I then look at the 517 at the top of the UAir list and realize that they received roughly the same protection as your senior pilots did by being allowed to keep their current positions until the age 65 award comes out or the fence comes down, whichever comes first, although I didn't see where they were protected if the company decided to move the airplanes out of their domiciles after they're no longer fenced. Might have missed that part...?

So, seeing as the TOP of both lists are protected, I then look at the rest of the award and see the UAir guys getting integrated by relative seniority WITH NO FENCES.

I'm here to tell you, if that happened here at AAI with the Midwest acquisition, it'd make UAir's recent slowdown look the perfect picture of on-time.

Every UAir pilot who's been hanging on the bottom of the seniority list by their bare teeth anticipating the attrition that was 4-5 years away just found out they MAY NEVER UPGRADE.

How would YOU think that was fair? Spend nearly your entire major airline career as an F/O...? 50 years old with 15 years of seniority and integrated junior to the 27 year old who's been out of an RJ for all of 18 months?

To me, it's all about how much you will make the rest of your career in the new combined carrier, and the award obviously favors the younger AWA pilots who will all be CA's in 10 years while the UAir F/O's will be... well... retired...?

The furloughs were and in some cases still are furloughed for over six years and counting, that had service at the time of over 13 yrs. When you look at a person who worked for a company and is furloughed with that amount of time in it becomes apparent that the company is in the final stages of life.

Hmmm... that's interesting. Tell that to the guy from our class who just went back to ATA with 7 years of seniority after 6 years of being laid off.

Or the guy from our class who just went back to mainline Northwest after being laid off over 6 years.

I hardly think being laid off for that amount of time is a sole reliable indicator of a company being "on the brink".

Now that's a whole different debate and most of the noise makers on this forum really have no idea just how close they were to doors closure. Nicalou got an opportunity to see the money they had left just weeks prior to this announcment. One fact that you and many may not know is that AWA covered their employees salaries for weeks prior to the official announcment!!!

So you see Lear there are many many things that most just don't see or even know about this deal. Keep in mind that the rabbit hole is much deeper that you may think!!

Reporting live from the inside WD with and exclusive

WD.

Heh heh...

You may very well be right. There are a lot of details that may not have been made public and, if they honestly and truly DID have zero cash in the bank getting ready to close the doors forever, then I stand corrected, but the last several bankruptcies of airlines has proven there is always someone willing to bail someone out...

No way to know for certain, I guess.

 

[FDJ2]

They were never honest with those they represent and now the East is focused on us as the bad guys.

Do you really believe this is the case, or do you feel that perhaps the AAA MEC was forced into playing the DOH hand by the membership they represent? Could you imagine going to a AAA LEC meeting stating that a ratio integration was the right way to go and that it would be best to expend negotiating leverage on constructing fences?

Frankly, I wasn't there, but I get the feeling that it was politically impossible for the AAA MEC to do anything other than insist on DOH. That is what the membership demanded of them.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Do you really believe this is the case, or do you feel that perhaps the AAA MEC was forced into playing the DOH hand by the membership they represent? Could you imagine going to a AAA LEC meeting stating that a ratio integration was the right way to go and that it would be best to expend negotiating leverage on constructing fences?

Frankly, I wasn't there, but I get the feeling that it was politically impossible for the AAA MEC to do anything other than insist on DOH. That is what the membership demanded of them.

You would be suprised F2 really suprised!! I have never seen a group of micro managers like their MEC!! The had a duty to not only explain the merger policy in full but to also give their group a realistic view as to what sticking with DOH would mean!! That just never happened and now we have a group of pilots with misplaced anger. Hey, the AWA pilot group certainly never told them that it was a good idea stick to a position not covered under our current CB&L.

Now here is a piece of truth that many won't want to hear. Doug Parker is in love with the deal!! That's what he does, makes deals. I predict that if we don't get our contract and single certificate by Oct, the feds will get real antsy about this seperate certificate crap. Doug will put both up for sale and with surviving certificate go after UAL!!!

WD

 

[m80drvr]

Now here is a piece of truth that many won't want to hear. Doug Parker is in love with the deal!! That's what he does, makes deals. I predict that if we don't get our contract and single certificate by Oct, the feds will get real antsy about this seperate certificate crap. Doug will put both up for sale and with surviving certificate go after UAL!!!

WD

DING DING DING We have a winner. Give that man a cigar and his furlough papers. I believe he called it right.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

DING DING DING We have a winner. Give that man a cigar and his furlough papers. I believe he called it right.

Well I don't think we'll see a furlough anytime soon however if this place keeps up along it's current pace it will. The company needs to address all the labor groups and in rapid order to bring our house in line. Now as for WD, he's covered and made sure of that long ago. Always have some fall back plan and I own a business that can take care of me and mine.

WD.

 

[FDJ2]

The had a duty to not only explain the merger policy in full but to also give their group a realistic view as to what sticking with DOH would mean!!

Good point. Although I believe I read the text of a AAA code a phone where that was mentioned early on. I suspect that the outcry from the membership at that point silenced the MEC and made them support a DOH/LOS position.

Regardless, they still had a duty to inform the membership that their merger position was unrealistic and inconsistent with the C&BLs.

That just never happened and now we have a group of pilots with misplaced anger.

Not good long term, particularly for the side that might decide it's a good idea to disrupt operations because they feef they are the injured party.

Now here is a piece of truth that many won't want to hear. Doug Parker is in love with the deal!! That's what he does, makes deals. I predict that if we don't get our contract and single certificate by Oct, the feds will get real antsy about this seperate certificate crap. Doug will put both up for sale and with surviving certificate go after UAL!!!
WD

He might try it, and he might try and sell both certificates, but he won't succeed in any hostile takeover of UAL and I very much doubt UAL is interested in anything LCC West might offer. IMO, there is a remote possibility that he might try a fragmentation of the East. LCC would likely keep the international operations and the shuttle, the rest sold to UAL. Pure speculation though.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Does management need a single contract to merge the certificate?

USAIRWAYS ran Mid Atlantic on their certificate with 2 different contracts.

 

[xanderman]

hmm...

If U liquidated how could the furloughs benefit from "attrition?"

Andy

 

[Wiskey Driver]

He might try it, and he might try and sell both certificates, but he won't succeed in any hostile takeover of UAL and I very much doubt UAL is interested in anything LCC West might offer. IMO, there is a remote possibility that he might try a fragmentation of the East. LCC would likely keep the international operations and the shuttle, the rest sold to UAL. Pure speculation though.

Don't be too sure about UAL bro, they have been looking for quite some time now for someone to purchase them. The for sale sign has been out for at least two years.

WD

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Does management need a single contract to merge the certificate?

USAIRWAYS ran Mid Atlantic on their certificate with 2 different contracts.

Yup they do.

WD.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Yup they do.

WD.

What is your source of this info?

 

[Lear70]

WD is usually pretty accurate. Never asked his source, but he's usually spot-on, which, combined with the general uselessness of debate once you've reached a certain point in the discussion, is why I don't continue to argue.

Don't know about UAL, haven't reallly been paying attention, but I *have* been saying for a while that UAL needs to get their house in order. They're the only restructured Legacy that still can't seem to turn a profit and is consistently in the red.

That doesn't bode well for them... Their debt and CASM is really a bit high for someone to purchase and keep intact. I'd be more concerned with splitting THEM up than trying to split up and sell off UAir assets.

 

[Green]

Lear,

As someone with more knowledge than most on this particular subject I can say for an absolute certainty that their own MEC is to blame and there are no two ways about it. I've sat there and watched it first hand so this is not what someone told me.

Many have stated that AWA got some sort of windfall but that simply is not true and here's why. Our number one guy on our list who retires next month lost 517 numbers right out of the gate, while the number one guy on there list lost nothing at all and that continues for the next 517 pilots. So you get the picture as to our number 2,3,4 and so on.

The bottom guys on our list who is a res 737 pilot is still on the bottom and is still a res 737 pilot. The pilot just jr to him was on furlough for 6 yrs and outside of this transaction he had no prospects of ever returning to AAA this is what Nicalou stated in his opinion. That furloughed pilot is now flying widebody international with some 300 pilots below him.

We got no windfall and if you and others really carefully examine the award and opinion you will see that. The furloughs were and in some cases still are furloughed for over six years and counting, that had service at the time of over 13 yrs. When you look at a person who worked for a company and is furloughed with that amount of time in it becomes apparent that the company is in the final stages of life. Now that's a whole different debate and most of the noise makers on this forum really have no idea just how close they were to doors closure. Nicalou got an opportunity to see the money they had left just weeks prior to this announcment. One fact that you and many may not know is that AWA covered their employees salaries for weeks prior to the official announcment!!!

So you see Lear there are many many things that most just don't see or even know about this deal. Keep in mind that the rabbit hole is much deeper that you may think!!

Reporting live from the inside WD with and exclusive

WD.

well said! Now you just need to copy that post and put it on usaviation.com and the alpa national web board so the vocal minority will shut up and we can all move on to getting paid...

 

[TWA Dude]

Does management need a single contract to merge the certificate?

No. In fact, they were originally planning to have it done two weeks ago. It's been pushed-off for technical reasons. Keep in mind that even when we're operating on a single certificate we'll still be operating seperately. The Transition Agreement still applies.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

What is your source of this info?

I'm very close to all the action boeing, VERY CLOSE...

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

No. In fact, they were originally planning to have it done two weeks ago. It's been pushed-off for technical reasons. Keep in mind that even when we're operating on a single certificate we'll still be operating seperately. The Transition Agreement still applies.

The trans agreement does apply but we are being informed that in order to get to the single cert they need a single agreement. Now this could be more management B.S. however the feds will never allow a carrier of this size to continue on indefinatly via a transition agreement thus Parker can't run two seperate companies under the single name...

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

well said! Now you just need to copy that post and put it on usaviation.com and the alpa national web board so the vocal minority will shut up and we can all move on to getting paid...

I do!


WD.