Eagle and the APA

[DGdaPilot]

Arrogant in general attitudes towards Eagle. AA needs feed, whether it be inhouse or contracted. Obviously APA didn't have the forsight (no one did) to know that the "crappy little" prop operators would morph into what they are today. APA had multiple chances to bring Eagle under their umbrella. But how many of your brethren would fly a J31 or Saab 340? A few, I know. But not much more. APA has no right to moan about whipsawing and scope when it's been their call all along.

Of course, nowadays AMR would be just plain stupid (from a business perspective) to let 13000 pilots (AA & AE) onto one union list and control all AMR flying.

 

[siucavflight]

I am sure bankruptcy papers are filled out and in the fax machine. APA persues this avenue and AMR voids their contract.

 

[Draginass]

Arrogant in general attitudes towards Eagle. AA needs feed, whether it be inhouse or contracted. Obviously APA didn't have the forsight (no one did) to know that the "crappy little" prop operators would morph into what they are today. APA had multiple chances to bring Eagle under their umbrella. But how many of your brethren would fly a J31 or Saab 340? A few, I know. But not much more. APA has no right to moan about whipsawing and scope when it's been their call all along.

Of course, nowadays AMR would be just plain stupid (from a business perspective) to let 13000 pilots (AA & AE) onto one union list and control all AMR flying.

Nobody's moaning about scope. AE was a contract provision that the membership agreed to, perhaps unwisely, but they did. Do they like it? No. Do they want to end it. Yes. However, they were also foresighted enough to put a floor on AA pilot jobs and restrictions on aircraft size. And that's what has been triggered now. It's no secret to AE ALPA that pilot floor is there, and they're not moaning either (at least not that I can discern).

As far as an engineered BK, it's not so easy anymore, and if it does come, it certainly won't be AE issues that drive it.

Could it be considered that AA might actually want the APA to revoke the commuter clause? I'm still mulling over why they might want to do that, but they're pretty crafty in that respect. I do know that when you think they're mounting a frontal assault, you'd better look to your flanks.

 

[siucavflight]

I, and I think most other AA pilots, think that 70+ seat aircraft can operate profitably without the overhead, and angst of another company.

Well as long as that is what you think then I believe that GA, and PB will probably do things your way.

 

[Flyby1206]

AMR is a follower in regards to the industry. They wont operate 70seaters at mainline unless everyone else is doing it. For this reason I would expect AMR to get a scope change from APA, find a third party to operate a token number of CRJ700s and/or EMB170s, then threaten AE and try to get lower payscales in exchange for the a/c. The whipsawing and fragmentation of flying will continue unless APA steps up during negotiations. Sad because AA is the legacy carrier closest to having all flying done by 1 company. I know the one-list concept isnt going to happen right now, but I would really urge APA to think of AE when they are negotiating the scope section. Keep it all in the AMR family, or else youll never be able to get it back.

 

[Draginass]

AMR is a follower in regards to the industry. They wont operate 70seaters at mainline unless everyone else is doing it. For this reason I would expect AMR to get a scope change from APA, find a third party to operate a token number of CRJ700s and/or EMB170s, then threaten AE and try to get lower payscales in exchange for the a/c. . . .

I don't think there is any possibility of relaxation of commuter clause scope. With the recent announcement concerning BA and IB, a much larger potential scope violation/concern has surfaced.

 

[Flyby1206]

I don't think there is any possibility of relaxation of commuter clause scope. With the recent announcement concerning BA and IB, a much larger potential scope violation/concern has surfaced.

Good, I would rather see the commuter clause stay exactly as it is instead of opening the gates for more flying for other carriers. Is APA mainly concerned about international route reductions for AA if there is antitrust immunity for AA/BA/IB?

 

[flyboyike]

Sorry, I don't understand. Can you be specific about what you're referring to as "this boat." Are your referring to finally being able to exercise the provision in our contract that restricts outsourcing of our jobs?

Also, arrogant in what regard? Protecting our jobs?

The boat in which you have to worry about your jobs going elsewhere in the first place. You wouldn't have that problem at all with a single list.

 

[Draginass]

The boat in which you have to worry about your jobs going elsewhere in the first place. You wouldn't have that problem at all with a single list.

Which jobs, and where would they go?

Since ALPA has several more years on it's contract, they are relatively inexpensive, so there's no reason for AA to let them out of the contract and combine with the APA. And the APA is very unlikely to take pay cuts to intice AMR to combine companies.

I see no chance of "one-list." AMR is a lot more likely to divest AE and let the other regionals compete for 50 seat feed.

 

[Rizzo]

AE may not be perfect, but if AMR drops them and contracts out to crap airlines like Mesa, you deserve any bad karma that heads your way.

 

[Draginass]

AE may not be perfect, but if AMR drops them and contracts out to crap airlines like Mesa, you deserve any bad karma that heads your way.

And it's not like AA is the "on-time" airline now.

 

[DGdaPilot]

I see no chance of "one-list." AMR is a lot more likely to divest AE and let the other regionals compete for 50 seat feed.

See that's the attitude I talked about.

AA guy: "Freaking Eaglets always whipsawing against us........ Let's make them whipsaw another regional, then AMR won't notice us with our pay and pensions."

Sounds like a smart move buddy. Let us know how it works out.

 

[Draginass]

See that's the attitude I talked about.

AA guy: "Freaking Eaglets always whipsawing against us........ Let's make them whipsaw another regional, then AMR won't notice us with our pay and pensions."

Sounds like a smart move buddy. Let us know how it works out.

I've heard a lot of whinging about this. What do you think the APA should do with it's leverage on the commuter exception? Remember you must consider:

1. AMR will have the final say on how it complies with the restriction . . . through either sale, shutdown, or in return for some other consideration to the APA. But they will, in the end, have to negotiate an agreement with the APA.

2. AE ALPA has several more years on it's contract giving it no leverage in the process. Any leverage would be bought at the APA's expense.

3. The APA will almost certainly not agree to take the hits in work rules and pay that AMR would demand to fold AE into AA. Plus the fight over seniority merger is something that APA members are very very tired of. In addition, AMR is likely to park a bunch of 50 seaters which could result in more furloughs while we already have 2000 APA members on furlough.

4. AE ALPA members almost certainly would not like the terms of a seniority integration that the APA would pose, even making the wild assumption that an agreement with AMR could be achieved. The disparity of compensation and workrules between AA and AE is too wide.

Unfortunately, the regional genie is out-of-the-bottle and I don't see any way of putting it back in, especially with other majors' weak scope restrictions. The best the APA can do is exercise it's leverage on the commuter clause provisions and get the best deal it can, whatever shape that comes it.

If you were the APA, what would YOU do, keeping in mind that the solution has to be generally supported by the membership??

 

[DGdaPilot]

Well I'm truly glad you've got it all figured out. Really. Like I said before, let us know how it works out.

I've already stated what I would do: ONE LIST.

And this is coming from a guy who has absolutely no desire to go to AA....ever. But in the long run, it is best for APA and EGL ALPA.

Think of it this way, AMR will always use regionals that feed AA to whipsaw you. Hmmm.....

 

[FOAgain]

Think of it this way, AMR will always use regionals that feed AA to whipsaw you. Hmmm.....

Exactly right. What's the difference between AE providing lift, or Skywest providing lift?

AE has always been the largest feeder for AA, therefore APA hates us. Fact is, they hate anyone else flying a single passenger with an AA ticket, but just lump them all in with AE.

History had shown the slow erosion of their flying. They can kick and scream all they want, but AMR gets what AMR wants. Period.