E2/c2

[skywiz]

Anyone here flown E2 or C2s? If so, how did you like the mission? Aircraft? Lots of flying time? Thanks.

 

[thebluto]

IF YOU CAN, DO IT!

I saw your post on P-3 and EP-3. I'm not sure if you can switch to E-2/C-2 if you're already in the P-3 pipeline. If you can, I'd switch in a heartbeat. Having experienced both, the CV world is much better and has a lot more opportunities (inside and outside the Navy) for you than the land-based prop world. PM me and I'll point you in the direction of some E-2/C-2 folks at NGP.

 

[firstthird]

Good question. Based on my admittedly limited experience with the civilian world, most airlines don't seem to care all that much about your specific military background (except if you were rotary wing and then they tend to discriminate against you in favor of your fixed wing brethern). That being said, a tactical jet guy will get hired with less total time than a P-3 or E-6 guy but they come out with less also. It seems that after a 10-12 year tour, fixed wing military guys are all on the same footing when it comes to getting hired by the majors. The helo guys seem to have to get some fixed wing experience first, maybe at a regional for a year or two, but they don't seem to have to get 5 or 6 thousand hours flying RJs that a pure civilian guy might have when he made the jump over to the majors.

I'm not sure what TheBluto is refering to about increased opportunities. I'm pretty much all P-3s and some VR though. If you are already in a pipeline, I'd like it and make the best of it. All Navy flying will be what you bring to it. Each has good/bad. Some things are more important to some guys than other things, i.e. some guys really want the shore basing whereas other guys want to be a tailhooker, to each his own. But in terms of marketability for the airlines in 11 years for you, I'd put most military fixed wing on an equal plaing field. You'll be a 'known product' regardelss of what you fly. And pretty much all the military planes are multi-engine (shout out to the viper guys) and over the 20,000k max GTOW that some apps ask for, exception being the C-12 or T-34 which tend to be the 2nd tour for some helo guys, once again kicking them in the jimmy. Pretty much sucks that way cause some weeks at selection you need jet mins and a pulse and you're an F-18 guy and other weeks unless you are top 2 of 15 you are flying helos. Helo guys can definitely still get to the majors but sometimes they have a longer, more difficult road through no fault of their own.

 

[T1bubba]

There are a few opportunities for CV folks in the civilian world that us shore based folks can't get, such as subject matter experts for defense contractors and that sort of thing. Many of those types of positions are aircraft specific though, I remember seeing an ad looking for someone with S-3 experience several months ago.

On the other hand there are other opportunities that we get that they don't. For example, I know several folks who have done contract work flying Travolta's 707.

As firstthird said, when it comes to airline hiring any fixed-wing military folks seem to end up about the same. My advice is to choose the platform that you think you'll enjoy the most and don't worry about your future opportunities. After all you're going to be flying whatever you end up with for a long time, you might as well enjoy it.

T1

 

[firstthird]

amen to that.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Pat,

The helo community is certainly not the kiss of death. I've never, EVER met a helo bubba that didn't like flying helos. Granted, the path to the majors is a bit bumpier, but not exceptionally. On the other hand, there are opportunities for helo bubbas that us fixed-wingers don't have. Out here in Hawaii, there are lots of helo dudes flying for the helicopter tour companies and making okay money doing so. One of the guys I fly with out here does helo tours on the side and it works out well for him. While on active duty, there are plenty of fixed wing shore duty jobs for helo folks. you'll see that quite soon when you start primary. Maybe half of those guys are rotorheads? There are also station pilots flying C-12's and C-20's and many go on to TAR jobs flying C-9's, 737s, etc.

Just give it your all, get the gold wings, have fun at wherever the needs of the Navy sends you and everything will be cool.

 

[skywiz]

Ques. for thebluto

I am curious why you say to switch if at all possible to carrier? I do have some concerns about P-3s breaking down and hearing certain things about the P-3 having a 40% mission completion rate. I don't know if they are rumours or not. Could you elaborate alittle more. Thanks!

 

[thebluto]

CHECK YOUR PMs

skywiz:
I sent you a PM. I'd be happy to talk to you in person. I'm just across the "C" parking ramp from VT-35.
thebluto

 

[thebluto]

Skywiz, did you switch?

Skywiz, did you switch? One of the CNATRA reps told me someone that was just finishing up King Airs switched their pipeline from P-3 to E-2 this week.

The gouge is there won't be anyone selecting P-3 slots for a while out of primary. The community is shrinking.

E-2s aren't a bad way to go. I know a few E-2 guys who got to cross-train in the F/A-18 as CAG LSOs. I also know a few former E-2 guys who became COs of EA-6B squadrons.

I'm jealous if you switched. I tried to switch a few years ago and was somewhat disappointed in the abrupt culture shock from Carrier Aviation to land-based Naval Aviation. It's just a different breed of folks.

 

[Orionpilot]

Let's see, E-2/C-2 - 6 month deployments on the boat, no perdiem, no beer!

P-3's, 6 month deployments on land with the opportunity to det to other locations, PERDIEM! and a cold beer (or two) after a ten hour mission!

Unless you enjoy long separations from your family while enjoying the accomodations that a carrier has to offer, choose fixed wing land based.

 

[thebluto]

Nice Thoughts, but not always true

I could go on and on about the falacy of how the P-3 community may sound great from the no boat/endless beer party/no family separation/Per Diem perspective. It really doesn't turn out that way in the long haul. If it was so great, people would be lined up around the block to do Department Head tours in both good economies and bad: doesn't happen.

I've seen both sides of the coin and the boat wasn't that bad, P-3s weren't that great. There is pain all over, no matter what part of the Navy you're in.

However, with the rumors of cutting squadrons and the realization that there is no real replacement aircraft, the so-called "party" may be over, or at least, greatly diminished.

 

[skywiz]

Yes

The Bluto,

Yes, I have switched to E2/C2s. I am excited about it. It is an interesting story about how is happened. Ill stop by stucon and be interested to hear about the carrier community. (I don't know too much about it). Skywiz

 

[skywiz]

Pat,

I am currently here in intermediates(vt-35) in Corpus. I did primary here as well. I definitely recommend coming out here for primary if you can. I like it better out here than P-cola. If you are lucky, when you come out here, you may be able to det out to Las Cruces for Contact, PAs, Forms stages of training. Both vt-27 and 28 do that around January and Feb. Its a blast.

As far as the wait goes, get used to it. Pretty much anywhere you go , there is a wait. A friend just finished intermediates (in the T44 for E2s) and he doesn't even class up for advanced down in Kingsville until October. When I started primary, the wait was about 1 month. I have heard there is quite a wait down here though.

 

[thebluto]

Patmack18,Keep treading, it'll come soon

Patmack:
I'm not sure what the flow is like on the API side, but things could possibly start moving soon. We had some really bad weather months in Corpus up until June.

But we're flying like madmen now. Right now, we've got a logjam of 40 students, in just our squadron, waiting to finish formation flights. As soon as they cycle through, there should be a steady outflow from primary until the weather gets bad again come November.

Everything happens in waves. You'll be out of the water soon.

 

[Mentorplt]

Per Diem or Da Boat??

One thing to consider is what your end goal might be. Do you want to be a career Navy dude or airline driver??

If the airlines are your choice, I believe (IMHO) P-3's are the way to go. If you want to stay Navy (all the power to you) then go the boat route.

IP

 

[thebluto]

FALACY

I saw the beginnings of the last hiring cycle in the mid-90s. There is no correlation between P-3 guys getting airline jobs before carrier guys. The airlines were all looking for pilots with FIXED WING TIME. Personally, the first guys I saw hired were the carrier based guys.

Also, the P-3 world is floundering. The planes are past their fatigue life and they don't have a replacement. Rumor has it that the number of squadrons are going to be cut in half and the reserves may be going away. There will be a number of P-3 pilots scrambling in the near future to find something else to do (not a good time to be job searching in today's economy).

The E-2 is one of the only aircraft in the Navy's inventory that is new, or at least has newer aircraft coming off the line. And, it has a mission, whereas the P-3 has been in an identity crisis since the Soviet Union and it's sub fleet went away.

Things are changing. Let go of the past.

 

[Mentorplt]

Hell if you are going to go to the boat....go in an 18!!!

 

[thebluto]

Go to the boat in an 18, don't I wish?!

Mentorplt:
If I could turn back tayohm...(as "just Jack" would say)
If I could have gone to the boat in an 18, I'd have been WAY happy. Got all my traps in the back and right seats of an EA-6B (and a couple of CODs).

My advice to skywiz was if he had a choice between E-2s and P-3s, I'd take E-2s. I had to make that choice myself, and I believe I chose unwisely in the P-3 route.

Patmack:
Hang in there. I think there are going to be some Navy training slots open soon. I'd recommend the Navy for those just starting out. The training is a lot less painful. Would you rather: study on your own, show up for your briefs and flights when directed, and have a one on one casual flight brief (Navy), or be forced to be in the squadron spaces from 0500 to close of business and have stand-up briefs (at attention), barking out answers to questions all day (Air Force)?

There is a certain amount of "suck" in any route taken, but having been brought up in Carrier Navy Aviation, I'd recommend it highly.

 

[grinch]

I've got 1,000 hours in E-2s and did 2 cruises in an E-2 squadron. I enjoyed it very much...but mainly because of the people (and there are good people in every community). Anyway, I really enjoyed the carrier. Landing on it that is. I didn't enjoy living on it so much but even that part had some good times. Saying the boat can be a fun place is like trying to put lipstick on a pig. The boat sucks. It's hot, loud, crowded, smelly, non-stop work (ever had a 42 day work-week...some guys have not seen ports in more than 100 days...that kind of thing makes people do strange stuff).

As for the E-2...it's an NFO dominated community. Pilots are monkeys and with few exceptions they find it difficult to become highly involved in the mission. About the most you can do is listen to the radios in the back and try to figure out what's going on that way. But the NFO's normally don't need your assistance and listening to multiple radios tends to get painful. Most pilots don't even try to keep up with it. They just notify the NFO's when it's time to go home and that's about it. For pilots the mission is quite boring 98% of the time and many of the guys I flew with always brought reading material.

As for the COD...I spent a week flying with the C-2 bubbas on one of my cruises. That's actually where the good deal is. They fly into a lot of different places and they tend to det from the beach (for east coast boats). West coast C-2's tend to work from the ship so it's not as good of a deal. Anyway, the COD's have a great mission. It's a pilot's mission - i.e. not an NFO dominated community. They don't have to deal with night traps (I don't care much for night traps and anyone who boasts that they do is full of sh** and is probably just trying to sound cool). COD guys make good per diem, stay in very nice hotels, get to drink, get plenty of flight time...trust me, it's a great deal and I regret not being able to fly CODs.

The bad thing about COD's is that their planes are falling apart. I've got lots of those stories. Many COD pilots are pressured into flying planes with questionable safety. They aren't building new ones anytime soon either. Many COD pilots have told me they think the only way they will get much-needed money to their community is when a COD full of VIP's crashes and kills everybody. I bet they are right.

As for choosing communities...you don't want to go to a dying community. It gets ugly when guys are looking for orders. Ask any old A-6 guy. Even the S-3 guys are trying to find jobs right now and that can be a real hard position to be in. The E-2 community is alive and well.

The Navy is currently having 2 types of aircraft built for carriers. E-2s and F/A-18E (*andF's). The bad part for the E-2 pilots is that most of the new money being spent on E-2's is going to back-end upgrades. Pilots will still be using old steam-dial gauges and landing gear indicators from WW-II era aircraft (no, I'm not joking) for years to come.

F-18 squadrons have about 17 officers while E-2 squadrons have about 28 - but they both have almost all of the same crappy ground jobs.

Sorry for rambling too much. I'll be glad to tell you more about it anytime though.
Mike

 

[BobbyB]

The carrier types tend to be single piloted, with the E2/C2 exception. That means you rack up the PIC time from the time you take your NATOPS check in the RAG. After your first tour, you can be getting close to the 1000 PIC hours. You have stick around longer to get that in multipilot aircraft where you have to work up to aircraft commander. (EA-6B, F-18 (All except training birds), F-14, S-3 (with exceptions), have a single set of controls). While the carrier based guys may or may not have more opportunities outside the Navy/Marines, they can still say that they have landed on a boat. Flare to land; squat to pee.