DW again! What does that mean?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your indifference might've allowed you to forget that the 2006 BOD is ongoing. Elections will be held on the 18th. (tomorrow).

The chances that DW gets relected are very good.

The question is how can this be? How can hundreds of pilot representatives re-elect this guy?

Perhaps it is time to understand.....

How many think it should be and what is real are two different things....

Flying a jet expertly and being pilot career effective are two completely different worlds.

The more pilots that we have that understand the more effective we can be.
The more pilots we have banging their heads against the wall the more we get hammered.

When your status reps return ask them why they voted the way they did....

Get informed-get involved!

 

[islandpirate]

Rez-

Sign out and get to work! :laugh:

IP

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez-

Sign out and get to work! :laugh:

IP

Just trying to get some last minutes votes.... opps..... :beer:

 

[Tejas-Jet]

The chances that DW gets relected are very good.

The question is how can this be? How can hundreds of pilot representatives re-elect this guy?

When your status reps return ask them why they voted the way they did....

Let me take a stab at this....maybe they voted the way they did because nobody came to an LEC meeting with a resolution calling for a new president wayyyy before the ALPA BOD.

Too many pilots want the other guy to carry the banner. Some pilots even claim to have called, e-mailed, and even had a face to face with their LEC reps on this issue....so what?

No resolutions....no change....

Tejas

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Let me take a stab at this....maybe they voted the way they did because nobody came to an LEC meeting with a resolution calling for a new president wayyyy before the ALPA BOD.

Too many pilots want the other guy to carry the banner. Some pilots even claim to have called, e-mailed, and even had a face to face with their LEC reps on this issue....so what?

No resolutions....no change....

Tejas

Agreed..

An observation.

Pilots try to apply aviation style action = results to issues that effect thier careers. In order to be effective one has to enter the grey of politics.

Pilots often show up to political meetings (aka LEC meetings) to pass resolutions. What pilots do is fail to politc the resolution before the meeting. And the resolution fails. Now the pilots is jaded by ALPA or the process.

Politics is the building of realtionships and alliances to pass resultions or legislation.

An expert pilot doesn't mean an expert in pilot careers.

If you want better pay, work rules and retirement then we must get political. The pilots that understand this are the ones that get elected and get hier resolutions passed. The ones that don't get fustrated and are ineffective.

 

[JP4user]

Flying a jet expertly and being pilot career effective are two completely different worlds.

You are correct. I'm sure you can get up to speed back in the sim but please explain and give some examples how effective you have been at saving this "career".

Duane did you notice that the CAL candidate Prater will refuse your salary for this position if elected?

 

[cactusboy53]

dw...

I had good (?) fortune to be at a MEC meeting, and DW just happened to be in town (imagine).

His arguments included that he was now "a Washington insider", and more likely to be invited to Sen. Lott's home or Sen. Kennedy's beach home (just don't let him drive you there).

DW has not taken any paycuts during his administration. He has bowed to the administrative staff union demands (now they get a retirement .... not complaining, but if the administrative staff get one...why is it so difficult to get one for all of us?).

DW said he could just return to NWA and fly his 9 day schedule on a 747 to the far east. I say....let's let him. He needs to remember what it's like.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are correct. I'm sure you can get up to speed back in the sim but please explain and give some examples how effective you have been at saving this "career".

How effective would pilots have been in thier careers if jumpseating was gone forever. That was saved. It's hard to appreciate something you take for granted.

Foreign Control/Ownership
FFDO
Damage control on pensions

See when you fly the jet and deal with wx, mx, QRH procedures etc that the passengers don't know about, do you stand on the jetbridge telling the passengers how you just saved thier lives and they should be grateful?

What many members don't realize is the political action and legislation against airline pilots that is averted or stopped. You don't hear about that. For example, the recent push to make a legal strike an airline employment disqualifying event and considered an act of terrorism.

As far as saving this career..... ALPA National doesn't control the MEC's. It is fustrating for ALPA National to save this career when pilot groups like UAL, DAL, NWA, CAL, Alaska, etc are voting for gutted contracts. If these pilots would take a stand maybe ALPA National would have some ammo.

How do you get a pilot to vote no. Is that ALPA Nationals fault? Is it a mexican stand off? The pilots will go some cajones when ALPA national does? Or will ALPA National grow some when the pilots do.... The one thing a pilot controls is his vote... and they voted for gutted contracts.

Duane did you notice that the CAL candidate Prater will refuse your salary for this position if elected?

Remember how pilots are great at flying jets but poor in the political arena....

That is why I chuckle at your comment... Why do you think he said he would do that? (to get elected! ). He needs a gimmick.....

p.s. I'm sure you are a great pilot!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I had good (?) fortune to be at a MEC meeting, and DW just happened to be in town (imagine).

His arguments included that he was now "a Washington insider", and more likely to be invited to Sen. Lott's home or Sen. Kennedy's beach home (just don't let him drive you there).

DW has not taken any paycuts during his administration. He has bowed to the administrative staff union demands (now they get a retirement .... not complaining, but if the administrative staff get one...why is it so difficult to get one for all of us?).

DW said he could just return to NWA and fly his 9 day schedule on a 747 to the far east. I say....let's let him. He needs to remember what it's like.

Washington Insider???.... in order to get the legislation you want you got to be an insider. Someone who builds relationships.... Everything in that effects our careers is determined on CapHill. You bet we need an insider...

Your post is misinformation and weak on facts...

I'm sure you are a great pilot....

 

[Skybus]

What do you expect here. To quote TAWS off another thread.... He is just a "frickin" pilot. What in the hell do you expect??

Rez-



Sign out and get to work! :laugh:

IP

 

[JP4user]

How effective would pilots have been in thier careers if jumpseating was gone forever. That was saved. It's hard to appreciate something you take for granted.

Foreign Control/Ownership
FFDO
Damage control on pensions

See when you fly the jet and deal with wx, mx, QRH procedures etc that the passengers don't know about, do you stand on the jetbridge telling the passengers how you just saved thier lives and they should be grateful?

What many members don't realize is the political action and legislation against airline pilots that is averted or stopped. You don't hear about that. For example, the recent push to make a legal strike an airline employment disqualifying event and considered an act of terrorism.

As far as saving this career..... ALPA National doesn't control the MEC's. It is fustrating for ALPA National to save this career when pilot groups like UAL, DAL, NWA, CAL, Alaska, etc are voting for gutted contracts. If these pilots would take a stand maybe ALPA National would have some ammo.

How do you get a pilot to vote no. Is that ALPA Nationals fault? Is it a mexican stand off? The pilots will go some cajones when ALPA national does? Or will ALPA National grow some when the pilots do.... The one thing a pilot controls is his vote... and they voted for gutted contracts.



Remember how pilots are great at flying jets but poor in the political arena....

That is why I chuckle at your comment... Why do you think he said he would do that? (to get elected! ). He needs a gimmick.....

p.s. I'm sure you are a great pilot!

Leadership by example. If the jumpseat retention is the only example you can come up with, then I say it pales in comparison to the destruction of contracts and retirements throughout the industry. You are correct about the MEC level, but National has exerted zero pressure or influence to stop the madness.

We have all see the results of Duane's politicla effectiveness and we need a leader not a political azz wiper inside the beltway.

If you think that the salary issue is just a gimmick, you are definetly out of touch with the feelings of the line pilots today.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Leadership by example. If the jumpseat retention is the only example you can come up with, then I say it pales in comparison to the destruction of contracts and retirements throughout the industry. You are correct about the MEC level, but National has exerted zero pressure or influence to stop the madness.

Leadership of the membership or national? I argue the membership failed to exercise leadership when they voted for gutted contracts. if you think leadership is only about the guys at the top then I got news for you...

How can national exert pressure when the membership is pushing inthe opposite direction.

Please explain the memberships who voted for gutted contracts. How does that factor?

We have all see the results of Duane's politicla effectiveness and we need a leader not a political azz wiper inside the beltway.

I just told you.. some of the poltical effectiveness is stopping legislation that you don't know about. Do you get on the PA and say "L&G we just missed another jet, but you are safe now" No, you fly on normally. Passengers don't expect to hit another jet so why tell them their expectations where misaligned.

Jumpseats.. your efforts to minimize that shows how you take it for granted. Also, you didn't comment on recent legislation on the Port Security bill to make a legal strike a non qualifying event for employment and considered terrorism. Care to address that?

If you think that the salary issue is just a gimmick, you are definetly out of touch with the feelings of the line pilots today.

It is a gimmick. He needs something to attract voters. get real. In addition, what is he going to do? Not give his account number and routing number? If he does that then he will have to pay for his expenses. Now, it will cost him money to be ALPA president. How does that make sense?

salary issue? We have hashed that out over and over. The haters need the salary issue to support thier postion. Salaries have been cut. You just don't want to acknowledge it. Do a search on DW salaries on this board. The haters always get educated.

 

[filejw]

He is being reelected cause we don't get to vote. Having our rep's vote for us is just enough to keep ALPA National out of touch with reality and what the membership truly thinks.Time for a constitutional change that gives more real strength to the ALPA president and less to the MEC's.And with one man one vote for ALPA Nationals top jobs.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

He is being reelected cause we don't get to vote. Having our rep's vote for us is just enough to keep ALPA National out of touch with reality and what the membership truly thinks.Time for a constitutional change that gives more real strength to the ALPA president and less to the MEC's.And with one man one vote for ALPA Nationals top jobs.

You don't get to vote.... But actually you do get to vote. Vote for your status reps just like we do with Congress. Should every citizen get to vote on all legislation on CapHill? The organization to do so is mind boggling. If representation isn't flawed in Congress then why at ALPA. Beisdes, with only 35% of pilots particapting in ALPA elections for status reps, what makes you think that they will be repsonsible with a "one man one vote" set up?

If this thinking, that you don't get to vote, is real, then why hasn't changes been made. is this a problem just now coming to surface after 75 years of ALPA structure?

But your are right, the membership is out of touch with reality. They really don't get it. They fly jets well but when it comes to effective pilot careers they don't know how to engage. they are disconnected.

That is one of DW's faults. He has failed to connect with the membership. But does that mean he's done a poor job in WashDC or does that mean the membership doesn't understand. maybe a little of both.

You want one man one vote? You got it and did so with gutted concessionary contracts. Why does the ALPA president need more power? UAL, DAL, and NWA handed DW a POS gutted contract and said this is what we, the membership, wants... but we really want you to to not sign it. Sorry but the membership sounds like a school girl in a mini skirt teasing her date... yes means no?

The ALPA structure and votes via status reps works fine. The membership simply needs to learn how to manage pilot careers on the political front lines, not the flight line. With 5% membership particpation at LEC meetings and 35% particpation in LEC elections the membership needs to engage.

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... I gotta raise the B.S. flag on this. Put down the ALPA crackpipe for a minute.

The entire concept of CASS was spearheaded by all the jumpseat coordinators in the wake of 9/11 and in 2002. It was spearheaded by UPS and Continental (before they rejoined ALPA).

FFDO program - come on man. Duane was initially opposed to it. Once again, it was the guys from non-ALPA carriers. Don't you remember APSA??

You and PCL_128 really ought to put the ALPA crackpipe down, look at the real picture and give credit where credit is due.

 

[filejw]

We have a whole country based on one man one vote but you say I do get to vote thru my rep? BS what if my rep votes for the guy I don't like? Have the the rep vote for me is where the disconnect between ALPA National and the membership starts.The poster just above me is right, you can't see the forest for the trees man.And one more thing. At least I get to vote directly for that congressman you us as an example.

 

[michael707767]

You don't get to vote.... But actually you do get to vote. Vote for your status reps just like we do with Congress. Should every citizen get to vote on all legislation on CapHill?

No, we shouldn't get to vote on all legislation. Nor should we get a vote on every resolution that happens within the union.

But we do vote for the President of the USA. I would not accept my congressman chosing the president. Why do we accept our reps voting on the chairman of our union?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Time for a constitutional change that gives more real strength to the ALPA president and less to the MEC's.And with one man one vote for ALPA Nationals top jobs.

Constitutional change??? And just who will get that ball rolling? The pilots who up to now haven't been involved?

Oh....and more strength to the ALPA preseident? In what way? Give up your vote and let the ALPA president make all the decisions for your pilot group?

Tejas

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez... I gotta raise the B.S. flag on this. Put down the ALPA crackpipe for a minute.

I don't care what we call it... ALPA or a new name. Fact is we have to realize that politics is where the business of effective airline careers happens.

The entire concept of CASS was spearheaded by all the jumpseat coordinators in the wake of 9/11 and in 2002. It was spearheaded by UPS and Continental (before they rejoined ALPA).

I am not talking CASS. I'm talking hours after 9/11 the DC players wanted to shut down jumpseat entirely. Online was saved, on the spot.

FFDO program - come on man. Duane was initially opposed to it. Once again, it was the guys from non-ALPA carriers. Don't you remember APSA??

Yes, and he switched to the will of the membership.. is that a flaw?

You and PCL_128 really ought to put the ALPA crackpipe down, look at the real picture and give credit where credit is due.

Again.. ALPA or a new union... we've got to step up as individuals as take some repsonsibility. Blaming one guy for the Perfect Storm is how legacy carrier management operates.. not innovative pilots looking to rebuild a career.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We have a whole country based on one man one vote but you say I do get to vote thru my rep? BS what if my rep votes for the guy I don't like? Have the the rep vote for me is where the disconnect between ALPA National and the membership starts.The poster just above me is right, you can't see the forest for the trees man.And one more thing. At least I get to vote directly for that congressman you us as an example.

Do you get to vote on the legilation the congreeman gets to? Do you get to vote for the president of the US?

C'mon the system isn't flawed.. just the particaption of the membership. With only 35% of pilots particapting in LEC elections, how can anyone justify the membership being responsible for direct voting...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No, we shouldn't get to vote on all legislation. Nor should we get a vote on every resolution that happens within the union.

But we do vote for the President of the USA. I would not accept my congressman chosing the president. Why do we accept our reps voting on the chairman of our union?

Hows the electorial college come into play....in US president voting...

Is the system flawed at ALPA? I've never heard of the membership not liking the electorial process. But now that the president is getting reelected there is a probloem with the structure? Are you sure thats the problem?

Perhaps the problem is the membership's lack of participation and understanding of an effective political process in air line pilot careers?

That is the intent of this thread. Why is DW getting re-elected?

Becuase the electorial process is flawed?

Instead of trying to make the situation fit our thinking, why not adjust our thinking to fit the situation. It is what it is.... not what we want it to be...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Constitutional change??? And just who will get that ball rolling? The pilots who up to now haven't been involved?

Tejas... in order to do a constituional change it would take a lot of organization from the membership. the BOD going on right now is the place to get it done. The mebership would have had to move on this months ago if not over a year. With 5% attendance rate at LEC meetings i just don't see how a non active membership could get much accomplished. In addition, a member or group of members would have to be politically savvy to get the consitutuonal change done. They may get easily out manuvered and resign themsleves that ALPA is flawed, corrupt, and useless.

Oh....and more strength to the ALPA preseident? In what way? Give up your vote and let the ALPA president make all the decisions for your pilot group?

Tejas

Tejas.. not sure where this is going.. Pilots exercised thier vote on concessionary TA's. Their voice was loud and clear. Not sure what more power to a president they don't understand would do.

ALPA does have a system of check and balances. To tip system away from the membership seems irresponsible....

 

[filejw]

TJ, Not me cause I'm on the way out but a better way is needed big time.One the of the biggest problems is we need to stop having lots of little fiefdoms(MEC's) and start thinking and acting as a national pilot group. Your last statement kind of speaks of the big problem with ALPA.Everybody thinks the problems they have are just unique to their group. We need to get leverage as union and stop working against each other.A strong leader with a bit more power would help.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

TJ, Not me cause I'm on the way out but a better way is needed big time.One the of the biggest problems is we need to stop having lots of little fiefdoms(MEC's) and start thinking and acting as a national pilot group. Your last statement kind of speaks of the big problem with ALPA.Everybody thinks the problems they have are just unique to their group. We need to get leverage as union and stop working against each other.A strong leader with a bit more power would help.

A better way is needed. Watch out for the double edge swords: the little fiefdoms work during growth with MEC leverage against management and get UAL2000. Now the DAL guys get 2001. Works well in growth and bits us during concessions.

The ALPA leaders do have more power than most think... His job is to represent us on CapHill. He does a pretty good job of it. The gov't affairs office staff has been there for years and they are most happy with DW. His political effectiveness is better than past presidents.

Another way a to get a stronger leader is membership particaption. When DW presents an ALPA-PAC check to a politician that favors Air Line Pilot issues...he can only say 15% of my pilots support your relection. What if he said 60%? 80%? how about 90%.

If you don't support ALPA-PAC (or CAPA-PAC if you are non ALPA) then you are not giving our leadership the power they need to get our issues solved.

My mantra is simple: control what you can- yourself.

• Attend meetings
• Build relationships with your reps
• Get educated: stay informed.
• Particapte in elections.
• Attend labor rallys like picketing and DC marches
• Particapte inthe PAC. It really isn't the amount so much as the particapation.

Most energy spend by the membership is wasted because if they would simply get educated on HOW things work they would not be expecting non-pragmatic solutions to work. This only creates fustration, apathy and cynism. And ineffectiveness.

Are we effective?

Your flight training is pretty extensive, with yearly recurrent. But where did you learn to be politically effective in your air line career? Chances are not much time and money was spent getting pilots trained to be effective careerist.

Only the guys that have taken a special intrest for one reason or anther are politically effective. And that is ALPA's fualt and the individuals fault.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Rez... I gotta raise the B.S. flag on this. Put down the ALPA crackpipe for a minute.

The entire concept of CASS was spearheaded by all the jumpseat coordinators in the wake of 9/11 and in 2002. It was spearheaded by UPS and Continental (before they rejoined ALPA).

FFDO program - come on man. Duane was initially opposed to it. Once again, it was the guys from non-ALPA carriers. Don't you remember APSA??

Wrong on a bunch of fronts. To clarify: Continental and Express were both part of ALPA BEFORE 9-11. June 2001 to be exact. So, when CALALPA started work on CASS it was after 9-11. And even then, it was in conjuction with all MECs of ALPA and BODs of independants.

ALPA started the push for FFDO when Wilson Polling showed that 72ish% of pilots wanted the option to carry a gun. This was early 2002.

 

[michael707767]

what does it mean? More capitulation. More crappy contracts. More outsourcing. More of ALPA taking care of itself first and its pilots second. etc, etc

 

[filejw]

Pretty much.

 

[FDJ2]

My prediction is that the ALPA President will be elected in accordance with the ALPA Constitution and By-Laws. As it should be.

 

[AAflyer]

Rez... I gotta raise the B.S. flag on this. Put down the ALPA crackpipe for a minute.

The entire concept of CASS was spearheaded by all the jumpseat coordinators in the wake of 9/11 and in 2002. It was spearheaded by UPS and Continental (before they rejoined ALPA).

FFDO program - come on man. Duane was initially opposed to it. Once again, it was the guys from non-ALPA carriers. Don't you remember APSA??

You and PCL_128 really ought to put the ALPA crackpipe down, look at the real picture and give credit where credit is due.

It was spearheaded by American and UPS. We were the first two carriers to have it up and running. As you know, neither airline is ALPA.

AA

 

[Freight Dog]

I stand corrected, but I do remember that UPS was one of the big players in the whole thing of setting up CASS.