Duty Times

[Boilermaker]

Does anyone know what the FAA deems the start of duty time when you are on an overnight??? For instance, if you have to check out of your hotel at noon but your flight does not leave until 8pm, did your duty start at noon or something like 7pm? We don't run into this often but it has become a sticky point and I want to know the correct legal interpretation.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

your company wont keep you in a hotel for a half day?

What do you do, hang out at the FBO?

From my past (and foggy) rememberance of 135, duty times started anhour before scheduled departure (haha)...they dont care where you rest....

Im just dont see why you wouldnt stay in the hotel until 6pm or so..

.

 

[Boilermaker]

Duty Time

I know this isn't the correct forum but I figure you guys run into this alot. I work for a 135 company and I have a question about duty time. When you are overnight, what is the legal answer as to when your duty time starts the next day? For instance, if you have to check out at noon but your flight leaves at 8pm, when does the FAA say your duty time starts??? Thanks in advance for the input.

 

[FRLWD]

When I worked for a 135 company, I was told by our POI that duty starts an hour before your scheduled departure or if you've been placed on stand-by. According to her it doesn't matter when you check out of the hotel, as long as you're not on stand-by.

 

[need2fly]

Dependes on why you are checking out of the hotel. Does thecompany want you available to fly earlier if the pax show up? Ifso then duty starts at noon-ish. If they are just cheap and won'tpay the day rate, then your duty starts at your required show time andit is time to start looking for a better company to work for.

n2f

 

[Flying Illini]

That's pretty much how it goes for us. But if we have a flight that leaves at 8pm, we keep the hotel until 5 or 6 pm, then head to the airport to get things ready. When we arrive at the airport, our duty time starts. Staying in a hotel as long as you can (they don't care if we get charged an extra day) is just like getting a day room. Like today, I goCMI-MDW-MSN-MDW and spend the night there, then don't leave until 6pm the next evening, so we will keep our hotel rooms and rest as long as possible.

 

[Otter]

could be urban legend...but......

I believe there is pretty straight forward case law from the FAA on this. And while you, might not be "on duty", if you are not in " suitable rest conditions" you are not in rest.I think the interp came due to the operators who claimed pilots in sleep rooms in the FBO were "in rest."

 

[mavrck]

Ya, unfortunately the duty time would start when you would have to be at the airport doing your function as pilot and doing pilot duties. Ie weather, preflight, etc.

Getting kicked outta the hotel early and you have no choice but go back to the FBO doesnt count on the duty time. But, im sure the fatigue time starts the moment you get to the FBO and have to sit in a straight back metal chair for hours on end waiting til 8pm.

I too run into this problem alot, unfortunately. But there isnt too much we can do about it. Ops says that just because you arent in the hotel doesnt mean you are resting. Or even when you ARE in the hotel you arent actually FORCED to sleep for your rest. You can do whatever you want during rest like ski, paint, drink (not for too long though)

Just another way for our cheap bosses to save a buck or two.

 

[guido411]

Isn't it obvious? Duty time starts IMMEDIATELY following your 10th hour after duty off, which is PRECISELY when the phone will ring for your days' trip changes!

 

[leardawg]

When I worked for a 135 company, I was told by our POI that duty starts an hour before your scheduled departure or if you've been placed on stand-by. According to her it doesn't matter when you check out of the hotel, as long as you're not on stand-by.

The key point here is that it usually comes down to what your POI says is acceptable. You can ask the same question at 10 different FSDOs, and get 10 different opinions. Duty/rest policy should be spelled out in your company's ops manual after being vetted with your POI.

 

[Live4flyng]

The key point here is that it usually comes down to what your POI says is acceptable. You can ask the same question at 10 different FSDOs, and get 10 different opinions. Duty/rest policy should be spelled out in your company's ops manual after being vetted with your POI.

It has nothing to do with POIs or FSDOs. The administrator is the authority, and they will issue you a violation. If you have a responsibility to be contactable, then you are not in rest. Your duty time starts at show time. The 135 clock starts ticking at the end of your rest. 14 hours from the end of that rest period, all 135 flights need to be completed, with the except of unforseen circumstances that are beyond your control, e.g.(holding enroute).

 

[350DRIVER]

Your duty day would not start until you arrive at your departure airport to perform duties pertaining to the flight that you are working for that specific day. If I didn't have a wheels up time until 8pm then no way in hell would I be checking out at noon to go sit around the airport for 7+ hours. The company would be paying for half a day rate if I was unable to get a late check out authorized. Most of the larger more upscale hotels would give a late 5pm/6pm checkout as long as they were not sold out for that night.

3 5 0

 

[leardawg]

It has nothing to do with POIs or FSDOs. The administrator is the authority, and they will issue you a violation. If you have a responsibility to be contactable, then you are not in rest. Your duty time starts at show time. The 135 clock starts ticking at the end of your rest. 14 hours from the end of that rest period, all 135 flights need to be completed, with the except of unforseen circumstances that are beyond your control, e.g.(holding enroute).

As a former 135 Chief Pilot with a number of years of 135 experience, I do beg to differ a little. Granted, FAR Part 135 is very specific when it comes to duty vs. rest. There are , however, some gray areas subject to interpretation. This is especially true concerning what is legal rest. There is nothing in the FARs that specifically says you cannot be at rest if you have to be contactable (unless there is something recent I am not aware of-I've been away from 135 for a couple of years). This has been a point of contention for some time. I have had one FSDO tell me that they would violate a pilot for something our FSDO had signed off on, only to have our FSDO say the other one was full of crap. The Administrator IS the ultimate authority, and your POI is the administator's representative. Following your company's specific, FSDO-approved or accepted policy, as spelled out in your ops. manual, is your safest bet. I'm not saying this will be fool-proof protection should some entity outside of your FSDO decide to make a case. However, I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for following ops manual policies and procedures. My point is this is not yet an exact science, as much as some people claim it to be. These areas need to be hammered out with your POI and the results put in writing in the ops manual.

 

[HMR]

When I flew charter in SoCal, the POI's interpretation of the regs depended on how often our Chief Pilot and DO took them to lunch.

 

[leardawg]

It has nothing to do with POIs or FSDOs. The administrator is the authority, and they will issue you a violation. If you have a responsibility to be contactable, then you are not in rest. Your duty time starts at show time. The 135 clock starts ticking at the end of your rest. 14 hours from the end of that rest period, all 135 flights need to be completed, with the except of unforseen circumstances that are beyond your control, e.g.(holding enroute).

I would also like to point out that the requirement for going beyond the limits due to unforeseen delays applies to the 10 hours flight time limitation, not the 14-hour duty day, as you state. If you read the FAR, there appears to be no provision for going over 14 hours. It's interesting to note that at FLOPS, we are scheduled to switch to Part 135 next month. Our new SOPs regarding duty and rest allow for a duty day of up to 15 1/2 hours due to unforeseen delays. I presume (maybe naively) that this has been approved by our POI. If you read the FARs literally, this is illegal. How can this be so? My only thinking is that the fact that the 14-hour duty day is based on planned completion time is the loophole. Another FSDO might very well have an issue with this. In fact, one FSDO stated a few years ago that if you went one minute over 14 hours, you were in violation as far as they are concerned (even if you were an air-ambulance with a critical patient on-board, they expected you to land!). It kind of illustrates my overall point.

 

[lv2flyy]

Duty time usually starts from the time you start getting paid, at least that is how it was worked out when I was flying 135

 

[lv2flyy]

Duty time usually starts from the time you start getting paid. At least that is how it worked when I was flying 135

 

[wingnutt]

Duty time usually starts from the time you start getting paid.

...huh?

 

[aeronautic1]

Hotel

Company credit card... stay in hotel until 1.5 hours prior to wheels up. My current 135 operator is real good about accomodations at late departures. However there are still those out there that think that a recliner in the back of an FBO is suitable rest area.

Now, lets talk about those 91 returns after a 6.2 hour leg...

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The 14 hour duty day is a grey area EXCEPT if you fly over 10 hours. In the section that describes flying > 10 hrs, the 14 hours is a mandatory MAX duty day.

All of the above discussion won't matter in a couple of months. The re-write of the FARs is due soon.

-125 will be eliminated
All of -135 will be re-written, with special emphasis on flight and duty times. ALso, -121 flight and duty time regs will be rewritten.

Cliff
YIP

PS-I have heard that the FSDOs do interpret a whole bunch of the regs in different ways. Hopefully the new regs will have less grey areas and more black and white.